<div dir="ltr">Hi David,<br><br>The Marind WITH-Applicative <i>k-</i> is similar to the Roon data. It allows an instrument to appear as a bare NP:<br><br><i>basik tamugh anggip k-a-k-w-alawa<br></i>pig food snout NTRL.FOC-3sg.SBJ-WITH-3sg.OBJ-is.searching<br>'The pig is searching for food with its snout.'<br><br>The instrument is obligatorily preverbal in this construction, which is the focus position in Marind, so the above sentence would answer 'With what is the pig searching for food?' (so unlike the construction that Austronesianists once called Instrument Focus, this is actual instrument focus). In my grammar I labelled this an Applicative only for language-internal and expository reasons, and I don't think it would qualify as an applicative for any cross-linguistic purposes, because the instrument NP fails to show object properties, and instead shows at least one subject property (at the same time, the original subject retains its subject properties). <br><br>The reason for labelling it as an (upper-case) Applicative is that the same prefix k- can also introduce a comitative participant, and in this construction the comitative NP shows object properties galore. As a Marind grammarian, I prefer to treat both constructions as subtypes of Applicatives, rather than positing a Instrument Voice vs. a homophonous Comitative Applicative, but with my typologist hat on I wouldn't call the instrument construction an applicative, as no object properties are acquired. So I think the Marind data is similar to what you find in the Bird's Head. It's still in New Guinea, but language contact seems unlikely.<br><br>Best, <br>Bruno<br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 7:33 AM Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div>
    What is an "applicative (voice)"?<br>
    <br>
    There was a thread on this term on the Lingtyp List in October 2018
(<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/2018-October/006630.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/2018-October/006630.html</a>),
    with some of the same participants.<br>
    <br>
    It seems to me that such misunderstandings will continue as long as
    we  think that things like "applicative" or "voice" exist
    independently of how these terms are defined. They probably don't,
    because languages are far more varied, and there's much more
    uncertainty, than we tend to admit.<br>
    <br>
    But we can propose clear and simple definitions of "applicative
    voice" – and following the 2018 discussion, I wrote this paper on
    valency and voice constructions where I defined applicative as a
    verb-coded voice alternant with A and P in an alternation whose
    other alternant has an S corresponding to the A, and P possibly
    corresponding to an oblique (§11.7):<br>
    <br>
    <a href="https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/005941" target="_blank">https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/005941</a><br>
    <br>
    Once we have clear definitions, we can begin to answer David's
    question whether languages with instrumental applicatives only are
    rare outside of Austronesian. (Polinsky 2005/2013 found "instrument
    applicatives" in 29 languages, but I'm not sure what her definition
    was: <a href="https://wals.info/feature/109B" target="_blank">https://wals.info/feature/109B</a>)<br>
    <br>
    Best,<br>
    Martin<br>
    <br>
    <div>Am 22.02.22 um 05:40 schrieb Matthew
      Dryer:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      
      
      <div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_4135570100079633503__GoBack"></a>Mark
          says<span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">However, every text
              study of either passives or applicatives, or non-core
              philippine-type voice choice, shows that there is a degree
              of pragmatic prominence associated with the use of these
              valency-rearranging operations. We might re-phrase the
              passive and applicative characterisations as<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></i></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">passive promotes
              pragmatically-prominent object to subject (and demotes
              initial less-prominent subject to non-core)<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">applicative promotes
              pragmatically-prominent (oblique?) to object (might demote
              initial (less-prominent?) object to non-core)<u></u><u></u></span></i></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">However, there are applicatives which are
          "obligatory" for a given semantic type. In one lg I work on,
          Ktunaxa, all applicatives are obligatory in the sense that the
          only way to express a benefactive, instrumental, or comitative
          is to use the relevant applicative. In Walman, the only way to
          express a benefactive is to use the applicative. Since they
          are obligatory, there really isn't any pragmatic prominence
          associated with these applicatives.<u></u><u></u></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Matthew<u></u><u></u></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        <div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">Mark Donohue
              <a href="mailto:mhdonohue@gmail.com" target="_blank"><mhdonohue@gmail.com></a><br>
              <b>Date: </b>Monday, February 21, 2022 at 10:24 PM<br>
              <b>To: </b>David Gil <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank"><gil@shh.mpg.de></a><br>
              <b>Cc: </b>Matthew Dryer <a href="mailto:dryer@buffalo.edu" target="_blank"><dryer@buffalo.edu></a>,
              <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">"lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"</a>
              <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
              <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] query: instrument voice<u></u><u></u></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Hi David,<u></u><u></u></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">The issue, as I see it, is what we mean
              by 'promote'.<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">We can agree that<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">passive promotes object to subject (and
              demotes initial subject to non-core)<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">applicative promotes (oblique?) to
              object (might demote initial object to non-core)<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">(and the philippine voice is something
              like " … promotes (anything) to subject (and doesn't
              demote initial subject to non-core)<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">However, every text study of either
              passives or applicatives, or non-core philippine-type
              voice choice, shows that there is a degree of pragmatic
              prominence associated with the use of these
              valency-rearranging operations. We might re-phrase the
              passive and applicative characterisations as<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">passive promotes
                pragmatically-prominent object to subject (and demotes
                initial less-prominent subject to non-core)<u></u><u></u></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">applicative promotes
                pragmatically-prominent (oblique?) to object (might
                demote initial (less-prominent?) object to non-core)<u></u><u></u></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">We typically describe applicatives as
                involving just the grammatical function change. Thus, we
                have examples like this cited for Indonesian (from
                Shiohara 2012):<u></u><u></u></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <ol type="1" start="1">
                      <li style="color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">(2)a  <i>Pelayan
                            mengambil segelas air</i>.</span><u></u><u></u></li>
                    </ol>
                    <p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">waiter<span> </span></span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">AV</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">.take
                        a.glass.of water</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                    <p style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">‘The
                        waiter took a glass of water.’</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
                    <ol type="1" start="2">
                      <li style="color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">(2)b  <i>Pelayan
                            mengambil-kan tamu segelas air</i>.<br>
                          waiter<span> </span></span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">AV</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">.take-</span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">APPL<span> </span></span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times;color:rgb(35,31,32)">guest
                          a.glass.of water<br>
                          ‘The waiter brought the guest a glass of
                          water.’ (Sneddon 1996: 80)</span><u></u><u></u></li>
                    </ol>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">As Susanna Cummings showed, however,
                (2)b examples are not really attested in naturalistic
                discourse; rather, we have examples like the following:<u></u><u></u></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">(2)c  Tamu di-ambil-kan segelas air
                (oleh pelayan).<u></u><u></u></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">         guest NONACTIVE-take-APPL
                a.glass.of water by waiter<u></u><u></u></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">         'The waiter brought the
                guest a glass of water.'<u></u><u></u></p>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">(See also Donohue 2001 for similar data
              from Tukang Besi.)<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">So, this shows that (in some languages)
              the increased prominence of the argument that was
              sufficient to merit coding with an applicative
              construction is also sufficient to merit a non-active
              voice choice, with all that entails. A Philippine-type
              voice system by stealth, as it were.<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">The Tzutujil example has an applicative
              suffix; and it also has a verb with 3SG absolutive
              agreement (Ø), not 1SG (the in- in the first example I
              posted). It also has the requirement that there must be
              overt coding of the increased prominent of the instrument;
              like Indonesian, it does that by utilising existing
              high-prominence coding strategies; unlike Indonesian, it
              does that not by using a voice change, but by using a
              pragmatically-marked word order choice.<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">-Mark<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1pt;margin-left:42.5pt"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Times;color:black">Donohue,
                Mark. 2001. Coding choices in argument structure:
                Austronesian applicatives in texts.<span> </span><i>Studies
                  in Language</i>25 (2): 217-254.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
        <div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 at 13:53, David Gil
              <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>
              wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
            <div>
              <p>Mark,<u></u><u></u></p>
              <p>Thanks for the Tzutujil example, which is indeed quite
                similar to the New Guinea constructions I have been
                looking at.<u></u><u></u></p>
              <p>However, I remain unconvinced with regard to its
                characterization as an applicative, though to a certain
                degree this is a mere terminological question. 
                Prototypically, applicatives promote to direct objects
                while passive voices (such as instrumental) promote to
                subjects — so, for any given construction, the question
                is whether the relevant argument, here the instrumental
                one, is more direct-object-like or more subject-like.<u></u><u></u></p>
              <p>This begins to remind me of the seemingly endless
                ongoing debates over whether Philippine voice
                constructions are "really" passives or perhaps something
                else, the question generally boiling down to whether the
                relevant argument is more like a subject or more like a
                topic.  Personally, I don't find these debates very
                productive, and I'm not sure how useful an analogous
                debate between applicative and instrumental-voice labels
                would prove to be in this case. 
                <u></u><u></u></p>
              <p>What's important is to have a clear description of the
                facts, and how the constructions in question differ from
                prototypical applicatives and from prototypical
                instrumental voice constructions — with the proviso that
                there are perhaps not sufficiently many of the latter to
                construct a clear notion of what is prototypical.<u></u><u></u></p>
              <p>David<u></u><u></u></p>
              <p><u></u> <u></u></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">On 22/02/2022 04:26, Mark Donohue
                  wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
              </div>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">I would agree with Matthew that
                    these are best described as applicatives, but ones
                    in which the 'pragmatic advancement' function
                    monitored by an applicative is, in addition to the
                    grammatical function coding changes, also required
                    to be monitored by the use of a pragmatically marked
                    word order. <u></u><u></u></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Very similar facts are found in
                      Tzutujil, in which the applicative, which
                      indicates an instrumental role (despite having a
                      morpheme cognate with the benefactive applicative
                      in other Mayan languages) also requires the
                      appearance of the instrument object in a preverbal
                      role, which is a pragmatically marked position in
                      a verb-initial language.<u></u><u></u></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Data from Dayley (1985).<u></u><u></u></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:55.3pt;line-height:15pt;break-after:avoid"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Times;color:blue">Xinruuch’eyi jaa7
                        tza7n chee7<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                    <p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:55.3pt;line-height:15pt;break-after:avoid"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Times;color:blue">he:hit:me       he
                           with   stick<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                    <p style="margin-right:28.35pt;margin-bottom:2pt;margin-left:59.55pt;text-align:justify;line-height:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Times">‘He
                        hit me with a stick.’<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:55.3pt;line-height:15pt;break-after:avoid"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Times;color:blue">Chee7
                        x(r)uuch’eyb’ei jaa7 inin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                    <p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:55.3pt;line-height:15pt;break-after:avoid"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Times;color:blue">stick  
                         he:hit-with:it     he    1SG<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                    <p style="margin-right:28.35pt;margin-bottom:2pt;margin-left:59.55pt;text-align:justify;line-height:12pt"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Times">‘He
                        hit me with a stick.’<u></u><u></u></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">-Mark<u></u><u></u></p>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 at 13:15,
                      David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>
                      wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                    <div>
                      <p>Matthew,<u></u><u></u></p>
                      <p>The reason I don't call it an applicative is
                        that (in most cases) the instrumental argument
                        must occur before the verb in a topic-like
                        position.<u></u><u></u></p>
                      <p>This can be illustrated with the Roon
                        instrumental prefix <i>u-</i> in the following
                        examples:<u></u><u></u></p>
                      <table style="border-collapse:collapse" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
                        <tbody>
                          <tr>
                            <td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">(1)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:0.75in;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="72" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">* Eros-i</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">t-u-karuk</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:85.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="114" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">ai-i-ya</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr>
                            <td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:0.75in;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="72" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Eros-pers</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">3sg:anim-instr-chop</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:85.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="114" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">tree-3sg:anim-def<span style="color:black">
                                  </span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                          </tr>
                        </tbody>
                      </table>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">                 
                          'Eros chopped the tree'</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
                      <table style="border-collapse:collapse" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
                        <tbody>
                          <tr>
                            <td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">(2)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:62.3pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="83" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">I-seref</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:38.2pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="51" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">kaman</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:22.65pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">fa</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:47.85pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="64" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Eros-i</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">t-u-karuk</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:85.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="114" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">ai-i-ya</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr>
                            <td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:62.3pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="83" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">1sg-look.for</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:38.2pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="51" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">axe</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:22.65pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">for</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:47.85pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="64" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Eros-pers</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">3sg:anim-instr-chop</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:85.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="114" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">tree-3sg:anim-def</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                          </tr>
                        </tbody>
                      </table>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;color:white">                 
                        </span><span style="font-size:10pt">'I'm
                          looking for an axe for Eros to chop the tree
                          with'</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
                      <table style="border-collapse:collapse" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
                        <tbody>
                          <tr>
                            <td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">(3)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:67.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="90" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">I-seref</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:38.2pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="51" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">kaman</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:47.55pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="63" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Eros-i</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">t-u-karuk<span style="color:black">
                                  </span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:135pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="180" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">ai-i-ya-ri-ya</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                          </tr>
                          <tr>
                            <td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:67.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="90" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">1sg-look.for</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:38.2pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="51" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">axe</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:47.55pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="63" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Eros-pers</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">3sg:anim-instr-chop</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                            <td style="width:135pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="180" valign="top">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">tree-3sg:anim-def-3sg:inan-def</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                            </td>
                          </tr>
                        </tbody>
                      </table>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">                 
                          'I'm looking for the axe that Eros chopped the
                          tree with'</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                      <p>Sentence (1) is ungrammatical, and cannot be
                        salvaged by adding a postverbal NP or PP
                        referring to the axe; in this respect it differs
                        from typical applicative constructions.  In
                        contrast, sentences (2) and (3) are fine,
                        because the instrumental prefix
                        <i>u-</i> is licensed by the preceding NP <i>kaman</i>
                        referring to the axe.  True, this is not exactly
                        the same as how things work in Philippine
                        languages, but it is more like Philippine
                        instrumental voice than anything else I can
                        think of (including applicatives).  In
                        particular, in (3), the instrumental prefix is
                        required in order to license relativization (in
                        contrast, relativization of other oblique
                        arguments is zero-marked).  To use Paul
                        Schachter's terminology, in both (2) and (3),
                        "subjecthood properties" seem to be split
                        between the agent (which, as you correctly point
                        out, controls agreement) and the instrument.<br>
                        <br>
                        Very similar patterns obtain in the other
                        Austronesian and non-Austronesian languages that
                        I mentioned, which — given the apparent rarity
                        of this pattern elsewhere — is strongly
                        suggestive of language contact.<u></u><u></u></p>
                      <p>David<u></u><u></u></p>
                      <p><u></u> <u></u></p>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">On 22/02/2022 03:41,
                          Matthew Dryer wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
                      </div>
                      <blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">David,<u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">Why
                            would you not say that the instrumental
                            construction in Meyah, Sougb, and Hatam is
                            an applicative, since the A rather than the
                            instrument controls subject agreement?<u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">Matthew<u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                          <div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From:
                                </span></b><span style="color:black">Lingtyp
                                <a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">
<lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on behalf of David
                                Gil <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">
                                  <gil@shh.mpg.de></a><br>
                                <b>Date: </b>Monday, February 21, 2022
                                at 7:40 PM<br>
                                <b>To: </b><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">"lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"</a>
                                <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
                                <b>Subject: </b>[Lingtyp] query:
                                instrument voice</span><u></u><u></u></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                          </div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">Dear
                            all,<u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">In
                            the Austronesian languages of Taiwan,
                            Philippines and Madagascar, there is a
                            verbal affix that is said to mark
                            "instrument voice"; loosely speaking, it
                            marks the topic or subject of the clause as
                            bearing the semantic role of instrument.<u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">Is
                            anybody familiar with similar
                            instrument-voice constructions from other
                            parts of the world?<u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">The
                            reason I ask is that a similar construction
                            is present also in some languages of the
                            Bird's Head and Cenderawasih Bay regions of
                            New Guinea, eg. Biak, Roon, Wamesa and Wooi
                            (Austronesian), and Hatam, Sougb, Meyah and
                            Moskona (non-Austronesian).  What's curious
                            about this construction is that, unlike the
                            well-known Austronesian cases, it is the
                            only morphologically-marked voice in each of
                            the languages in question; there is no
                            "ordinary" morphological passive
                            construction.  My feeling is that this
                            construction is quite uncommon
                            cross-linguistically, but I would like to
                            get a feel for the extent to which this is
                            indeed true.<u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">David<u></u><u></u></p>
                          <pre>-- <u></u><u></u></pre>
                          <pre>David Gil<u></u><u></u></pre>
                          <pre> <u></u><u></u></pre>
                          <pre>Senior Scientist (Associate)<u></u><u></u></pre>
                          <pre>Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<u></u><u></u></pre>
                          <pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<u></u><u></u></pre>
                          <pre>Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<u></u><u></u></pre>
                          <pre> <u></u><u></u></pre>
                          <pre>Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
                          <pre>Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<u></u><u></u></pre>
                          <pre>Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<u></u><u></u></pre>
                          <pre> <u></u><u></u></pre>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                      <pre>-- <u></u><u></u></pre>
                      <pre>David Gil<u></u><u></u></pre>
                      <pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
                      <pre>Senior Scientist (Associate)<u></u><u></u></pre>
                      <pre>Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<u></u><u></u></pre>
                      <pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<u></u><u></u></pre>
                      <pre>Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<u></u><u></u></pre>
                      <pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
                      <pre>Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
                      <pre>Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<u></u><u></u></pre>
                      <pre>Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<u></u><u></u></pre>
                      <pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
                    </div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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                  </blockquote>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
              <pre>-- <u></u><u></u></pre>
              <pre>David Gil<u></u><u></u></pre>
              <pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
              <pre>Senior Scientist (Associate)<u></u><u></u></pre>
              <pre>Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<u></u><u></u></pre>
              <pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<u></u><u></u></pre>
              <pre>Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<u></u><u></u></pre>
              <pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
              <pre>Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
              <pre>Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<u></u><u></u></pre>
              <pre>Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<u></u><u></u></pre>
              <pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset></fieldset>
      <pre>_______________________________________________
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre cols="72">-- 
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/" target="_blank">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a></pre>
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