<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Dear Amanda,</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">My favorite Polish expression is <a href="https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/tysi%C4%85c_pi%C4%99%C4%87set_sto_dziewi%C4%99%C4%87set" style="font-style:italic">tysiąc pięćset sto dziewięćset</a>, which literally translates to "one thousand five hundred one hundred nine hundred." Wiktionary says that the meaning is "a lot, but no one knows how many, even approximately," although my sense is that <i>tysiąc pięćset sto dziewięćset</i> is most appropriately used for quantities that are measured in hundreds or thousands. (The Wiktionary example says "we burned one thousand five hundred one hundred nine hundred calories, but we also devoured a lot", which seems to corroborate my intuition.)</div><div dir="ltr"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">All the best,<br><table style="max-width:600px;direction:ltr"><tbody><tr><td><table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="max-width:470px;padding-bottom:10px;margin-bottom:8px"><tbody><tr><td><table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="470" style="width:470px"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td style="width:10px;padding-right:10px"><img src="https://d36urhup7zbd7q.cloudfront.net/90f122fa-3ebc-42a3-8e83-98aa0ab0de8d/DSC095903_sharpened.crop_1365x1364_0,469.preview.format_png.resize_200x.png#logo" width="65" height="64.95238095238095" alt="photo" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Lato,sans-serif;font-size:medium;border-radius:4px;width:65px;height:64.9524px;max-width:120px"></td><td style="border-right:1px solid rgb(69,102,142)"></td><td style="font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;padding:0px 10px">Maksymilian Dąbkowski<br>PhD student at Cal Linguistics<br>+1 (401) 744-0019<br><a href="http://maksymilian-dabkowski.github.io/" target="_blank">maksymilian-dabkowski.github.io</a><br></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 9:06 AM <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Lingtyp mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Approximative numerals with emotive content (Raffaele Simone)<br>
2. Re: Approximative numerals with emotive content (Liina Lindström)<br>
3. Re: Approximative numerals with emotive content<br>
(Sebastian Nordhoff)<br>
4. R: Approximative numerals with emotive content<br>
(Lidia Federica Mazzitelli)<br>
5. Re: Approximative numerals with emotive content (David Gil)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:03:30 +0100<br>
From: Raffaele Simone <<a href="mailto:rsimone@os.uniroma3.it" target="_blank">rsimone@os.uniroma3.it</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Approximative numerals with emotive content<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:5e42eb5f-45ef-708d-249a-a41b3d3bbc51@os.uniroma3.it" target="_blank">5e42eb5f-45ef-708d-249a-a41b3d3bbc51@os.uniroma3.it</a>><br>
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Dear all,<br>
<br>
on the non-numeral uses of numerals in various languages a very <br>
important and instructive work is:<br>
<br>
*Bazzanella*, Carla (with R. Pugliese & E. Strudsholm), /Numeri per <br>
parlare. Da "quattro chiacchiere" a "grazie mille". /Bari & Rome: <br>
Laterza 2011.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Raffaele<br>
<br>
Il 22/02/2022 16:05, Paolo Ramat ha scritto:<br>
<br>
> Dear Amanda,<br>
> you are asking for <<numeral expressions which typically express <br>
> larger, approximate numeric quantities (and encode some kind of <br>
> emotive function>>: not necessarily).<br>
> Here a couple of Italian examples:<br>
> It. "nella manifestazione dei no-vax (= anti-covid vaccination <br>
> persons) c'era(no) *appena un centinaio* di persone (= Germ./kaum <br>
> hundert Leute/). I jilets-jaunes erano *alcune migliaia* (not <br>
> emotive).<br>
> You can have*centinaia / -o, migliaia/-o* but not *cinquantinaio nor <br>
> *diecinaio: what you really find is *cinquantina*, *diecina *for the <br>
> approximate numeric quantitity<br>
> Best,<br>
> Paolo<br>
><br>
> Prof. Dr. Paolo Ramat<br>
> Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente<br>
> 'Academia Europaea'<br>
> 'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member<br>
> Università di Pavia (retired)<br>
> Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)<br>
><br>
> piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia<br>
> ##39 0382 27027<br>
> 347 044 98 44<br>
><br>
><br>
> Il giorno mar 22 feb 2022 alle ore 15:29 Amanda Kann <br>
> <<a href="mailto:amanda.kann@su.se" target="_blank">amanda.kann@su.se</a>> ha scritto:<br>
><br>
> Dear typologists,<br>
><br>
> (Apologies to those who have already seen this query through<br>
> LinguistList!)<br>
><br>
> I'm looking for corresponding expressions (in any language) to the<br>
> approximative numeral phrases in the examples below –<br>
> conventionalized numeral expressions which typically express<br>
> larger, approximate numeric quantities and encode some kind of<br>
> emotive function.<br>
> I'm interested in the composition and value of these numerals, as<br>
> well as their emphatic and emotive functions – if there are other<br>
> expressions in the numeral domain in your language(s) that carry a<br>
> similar illocutionary force, I would love to hear about them as well!<br>
><br>
> Swedish [swe]: (from Bloggmix 2013, accessed through<br>
> <a href="http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp</a> <<a href="http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp</a>>)<br>
> Det finns nämligen femtioelva sorters myror.<br>
> 'There are actually many types of ants' (lit. 'There are actually<br>
> fifty-eleven types of ants')<br>
><br>
> French [fra]: (Lavric 2010,<br>
> <a href="https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008</a><br>
> <<a href="https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008</a>>)<br>
> Il n’y a pas trente-six façons de voir la chose.<br>
> 'There aren't very many ways of seeing the thing' (lit. 'There<br>
> aren't thirty-six ways of seeing the thing')<br>
><br>
> Danish [dan]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through<br>
> <a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu</a> <<a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu/</a>>)<br>
> Han fortalte mig 117 gange, at han ikke gjorde hende noget.<br>
> 'He told me a thousand times that he didn't do anything to her'<br>
> (lit. 'He told me 117 times that he didn't do anything to her')<br>
><br>
> English [eng]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through<br>
> <a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu</a> <<a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu/</a>>)<br>
> For the umpteenth time, we are not getting a dog.<br>
><br>
> Thank you very much in advance for any tips, examples or comments!<br>
><br>
> Best regards,<br>
><br>
> Amanda Kann<br>
><br>
> *____________________________________*<br>
><br>
> *Amanda Kann*<br>
><br>
> Institutionen för lingvistik | /Department of //Linguistics/<br>
><br>
> *Stockholms universitet | /Stockholm University/*<br>
> 106 91 Stockholm<br>
><br>
><br>
> _amanda.kann@su.se_<br>
> <a href="http://www.ling.su.se" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.ling.su.se</a> <<a href="http://www.ling.su.se/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.ling.su.se/</a>><br>
><br>
> Personuppgiftsbehandling vid Stockholms universitet<br>
> <<a href="https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter</a>><br>
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-- <br>
===============<br>
Emeritus Professor, Università Roma Tre<br>
Hon C Lund University<br>
Membre de l'Académie Royale de Belgique<br>
Chevalier de l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres de France<br>
Accademico della Crusca<br>
===============<br>
Attività e pubblicazioni // Activity and publicationshttp://<a href="http://uniroma3.academia.edu/RaffaeleSimone" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">uniroma3.academia.edu/RaffaeleSimone</a><br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 16:04:35 +0000<br>
From: Liina Lindström <<a href="mailto:liina.lindstrom@ut.ee" target="_blank">liina.lindstrom@ut.ee</a>><br>
To: Amanda Kann <<a href="mailto:amanda.kann@su.se" target="_blank">amanda.kann@su.se</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Approximative numerals with emotive content<br>
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Dear all,<br>
Estonian has a suffix -kond, which can be attached to some numerals, such as 'ten', 'hundred', 'thousand':<br>
<br>
Seal oli kümmekond / sadakond / tuhatkond inimest.<br>
there be.pst.3sg ten+kond / hundred+kond / thousand+kond person.prt<br>
'There were about ten / about hundred / about thousand people.'<br>
<br>
-kond comes from the word *kunta; in present-day Estonian in occurs only as a suffix and is used in words like perekond 'family' or teaduskond 'faculty' and has a meaning of 'group'.<br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
Liina<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
Saatja: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> Denys T. <<a href="mailto:denys.teptiuk@gmail.com" target="_blank">denys.teptiuk@gmail.com</a>> nimel<br>
Saadetud: teisipäev, 22. veebruar 2022 16:42<br>
Adressaat: Amanda Kann <<a href="mailto:amanda.kann@su.se" target="_blank">amanda.kann@su.se</a>><br>
Koopia: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Teema: Re: [Lingtyp] Approximative numerals with emotive content<br>
<br>
Dear Amanda,<br>
<br>
Colloquial Russian has something similar, namely 100500 stopjatsot, stopicot (colloq.) ‘one hundred five hundred’ pro ‘one hundred thousand five hundred’. 100500 is usually used in mocking contexts to express large amounts. Here’s a random example from the internet [probably conveying the speaker’s annoyance]:<br>
<br>
Kak obyčno nado sdelat’ stopjatsot fotok, čtoby polučilas’ odna!<br>
how usually need make.inf hundred.five.hundred <a href="http://photo.gen.pl" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">photo.gen.pl</a> in.order succeed.prs.3sg one<br>
‘As usual, one has to make 100500 photos to get a good one!’<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Denys<br>
<br>
<br>
On 22. Feb 2022, at 16:27, Amanda Kann <<a href="mailto:amanda.kann@su.se" target="_blank">amanda.kann@su.se</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:amanda.kann@su.se" target="_blank">amanda.kann@su.se</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
(Apologies to those who have already seen this query through LinguistList!)<br>
I'm looking for corresponding expressions (in any language) to the approximative numeral phrases in the examples below – conventionalized numeral expressions which typically express larger, approximate numeric quantities and encode some kind of emotive function.<br>
I'm interested in the composition and value of these numerals, as well as their emphatic and emotive functions – if there are other expressions in the numeral domain in your language(s) that carry a similar illocutionary force, I would love to hear about them as well!<br>
<br>
Swedish [swe]: (from Bloggmix 2013, accessed through <a href="http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp</a>)<br>
Det finns nämligen femtioelva sorters myror.<br>
'There are actually many types of ants' (lit. 'There are actually fifty-eleven types of ants')<br>
<br>
French [fra]: (Lavric 2010, <a href="https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008</a>)<br>
Il n’y a pas trente-six façons de voir la chose.<br>
'There aren't very many ways of seeing the thing' (lit. 'There aren't thirty-six ways of seeing the thing')<br>
<br>
Danish [dan]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through <a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu</a><<a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu/</a>>)<br>
Han fortalte mig 117 gange, at han ikke gjorde hende noget.<br>
'He told me a thousand times that he didn't do anything to her' (lit. 'He told me 117 times that he didn't do anything to her')<br>
<br>
English [eng]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through <a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu</a><<a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu/</a>>)<br>
For the umpteenth time, we are not getting a dog.<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank you very much in advance for any tips, examples or comments!<br>
Best regards,<br>
Amanda Kann<br>
____________________________________<br>
Amanda Kann<br>
Institutionen för lingvistik | Department of Linguistics<br>
Stockholms universitet | Stockholm University<br>
106 91 Stockholm<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:amanda.kann@su.se" target="_blank">amanda.kann@su.se</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:amanda.kann@su.se" target="_blank">amanda.kann@su.se</a>><br>
<a href="http://www.ling.su.se" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.ling.su.se</a><<a href="http://www.ling.su.se/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.ling.su.se/</a>><br>
Personuppgiftsbehandling vid Stockholms universitet<<a href="https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter</a>><br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:16:01 +0100<br>
From: Sebastian Nordhoff <<a href="mailto:sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de" target="_blank">sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Approximative numerals with emotive content<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:d8bed923-ba3a-7af0-8256-84d9ba287509@glottotopia.de" target="_blank">d8bed923-ba3a-7af0-8256-84d9ba287509@glottotopia.de</a>><br>
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<br>
<br>
On 2/22/22 16:53, Bastian Persohn wrote:<br>
> Dear Amanda,<br>
> <br>
> I’n not entirely sure if this is what you are looking for, but <br>
> colloquial German has /drölf, /a blend of /drei/ ’three’ and <br>
> /zwölf/ ’twelve’.<br>
> <br>
> It commonly means something like ‚any number between three and twelve‘ <br>
> but can also be used in the sense of ‚an unknown or unspecified large <br>
> quantity‘. <br>
<br>
<br>
To me, "drölf" has a clear value of '13', as it follows "elf" '11' and <br>
"zwölf" '12'. The equivalent in pseudo-English would be 'threlve'.<br>
<br>
For higher indeterminate numbers, you can use "drölfzig" 'threlvety' and <br>
"drölfzigtausend" 'threlvety thousand'. As in English, the suffix "-zig" <br>
'-ty' can only combine with single digit numbers, which adds to the <br>
humourous effect (cf. "femtio-elva", where the "elva" part presumably <br>
cannot be used in compounds either).<br>
<br>
I feel that these numbers are not "approximative" though, but rather <br>
"indeterminate". "femtioelva" does not mean ~50, "quarante-douze" does <br>
not mean ~50, and 117 does not mean ~100, but rather "a somewhat (too) <br>
large number where the speaker does not really have an idea of the <br>
magnitude"<br>
<br>
For approximative numbers, the Romance "centinaio", "centaine", <br>
"centena" have been mentioned, but this seems to be different in the <br>
sense that here the speaker actually commits to a certain (albeit fuzzy) <br>
value.<br>
<br>
Best wishes<br>
Sebastian<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Rather than emotive, it’s jocular, though. Wiktionary lists<br>
> it as 'fiktive ganze Zahl‘ [fictive whole number] <br>
> (<a href="https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/dr%C3%B6lf" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/dr%C3%B6lf</a> <br>
> <<a href="https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/dr%C3%B6lf" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/drölf</a>>).<br>
> <br>
> Best,<br>
> Bastian<br>
> <br>
> <br>
>> Am 22.02.2022 um 15:27 schrieb Amanda Kann <<a href="mailto:amanda.kann@su.se" target="_blank">amanda.kann@su.se</a> <br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:amanda.kann@su.se" target="_blank">amanda.kann@su.se</a>>>:<br>
>><br>
>> Dear typologists,<br>
>> (Apologies to those who have already seen this query through <br>
>> LinguistList!)<br>
>> I'm looking for corresponding expressions (in any language) to the <br>
>> approximative numeral phrases in the examples below – conventionalized <br>
>> numeral expressions which typically express larger, approximate <br>
>> numeric quantities and encode some kind of emotive function.<br>
>> I'm interested in the composition and value of these numerals, as well <br>
>> as their emphatic and emotive functions – if there are other <br>
>> expressions in the numeral domain in your language(s) that carry a <br>
>> similar illocutionary force, I would love to hear about them as well!<br>
>><br>
>> Swedish [swe]: (from Bloggmix 2013, accessed through <br>
>> <a href="http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp</a> <<a href="http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp</a>>)<br>
>> Det finns nämligen femtioelva sorters myror.<br>
>> 'There are actually many types of ants' (lit. 'There are actually <br>
>> fifty-eleven types of ants')<br>
>><br>
>> French [fra]: (Lavric 2010,<a href="https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008</a> <br>
>> <<a href="https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008</a>>)<br>
>> Il n’y a pas trente-six façons de voir la chose.<br>
>> 'There aren't very many ways of seeing the thing' (lit. 'There aren't <br>
>> thirty-six ways of seeing the thing')<br>
>><br>
>> Danish [dan]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through <br>
>> <a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu</a> <<a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu/</a>>)<br>
>> Han fortalte mig 117 gange, at han ikke gjorde hende noget.<br>
>> 'He told me a thousand times that he didn't do anything to her' (lit. <br>
>> 'He told me 117 times that he didn't do anything to her')<br>
>><br>
>> English [eng]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through <br>
>> <a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu</a> <<a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu/</a>>)<br>
>> For the umpteenth time, we are not getting a dog.<br>
>><br>
>> Thank you very much in advance for any tips, examples or comments!<br>
>> Best regards,<br>
>> Amanda Kann<br>
>> *____________________________________*<br>
>> *Amanda Kann*<br>
>> Institutionen för lingvistik | /Department of //Linguistics/<br>
>> *Stockholms universitet | /Stockholm University/*<br>
>> 106 91 Stockholm<br>
>><br>
>> _<a href="mailto:amanda.kann@su.se" target="_blank">amanda.kann@su.se</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:amanda.kann@su.se" target="_blank">amanda.kann@su.se</a>>_<br>
>> <a href="http://www.ling.su.se" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.ling.su.se</a> <<a href="http://www.ling.su.se/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.ling.su.se/</a>><br>
>> Personuppgiftsbehandling vid Stockholms universitet <br>
>> <<a href="https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter</a>><br>
>> *____________________________________*<br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Lingtyp mailing list<br>
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> <br>
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<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:23:20 +0100<br>
From: Lidia Federica Mazzitelli <<a href="mailto:lfmazzitelli@gmail.com" target="_blank">lfmazzitelli@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Amanda Kann <<a href="mailto:amanda.kann@su.se" target="_blank">amanda.kann@su.se</a>>, <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Subject: [Lingtyp] R: Approximative numerals with emotive content<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CABZ3858p9hVRaLo_zobJDOo0HNGjoNJCp7Mqq1O6eaHZXpY1kw@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CABZ3858p9hVRaLo_zobJDOo0HNGjoNJCp7Mqq1O6eaHZXpY1kw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Dear Amanda,<br>
<br>
personally in Italian I use *trenta *(30), *trentamila *(30.000),<br>
*diciassettemila<br>
*(17.000), *quarantamila *(40.000), cinquantamila (50.000),<br>
quarantasettemila (47.000), *settantamila* (70.000), *mille *(1000), *millemila<br>
*(not a real number: means ‘one thousand thousands’), *centomila *(‘100.000’),<br>
*centocinquantamila *(150.000), *cinquecentomila *(500.000), un milione (a<br>
million). These all have a pragmatic nuance of annoyance and complaining,<br>
for me. Usual contexts are "I've told you this already 47.000 times!",<br>
"students always have 17.000 questions one has to reply to", "your building<br>
has 50.000 different staircases, I always get lost' et similia.<br>
<br>
Now, Looking briefly online, I’ve only found *mille, trentamila *and<br>
*centocinquantamila<br>
*as conventionalized expressions for an undetermined large amount. I am not<br>
really sure whether the above mentioned numbers are just my idiolect or<br>
other people in Italy use them, too - I never paid too much attention. It's<br>
my impression that in Italian you can use any number in the thousands in<br>
this function.<br>
<br>
The expressions un centinaio/un migliaio Paolo Ramat mentioned before are<br>
widely used as generic expressions for "many", only they don't have (at<br>
least that's my intuition) a particular emotive value.<br>
<br>
Sorry if this was more impressionistic than informative, hope you can find<br>
more information!<br>
<br>
All the best<br>
<br>
Lidia<br>
<br>
Inviato da Posta <<a href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986</a>> per<br>
Windows<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
*Da: *Amanda Kann <<a href="mailto:amanda.kann@su.se" target="_blank">amanda.kann@su.se</a>><br>
*Inviato: *martedì 22 febbraio 2022 15:28<br>
*A: *<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
*Oggetto: *[Lingtyp] Approximative numerals with emotive content<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear typologists,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
(Apologies to those who have already seen this query through LinguistList!)<br>
<br>
I'm looking for corresponding expressions (in any language) to the<br>
approximative numeral phrases in the examples below – conventionalized<br>
numeral expressions which typically express larger, approximate numeric<br>
quantities and encode some kind of emotive function.<br>
I'm interested in the composition and value of these numerals, as well as<br>
their emphatic and emotive functions – if there are other expressions in<br>
the numeral domain in your language(s) that carry a similar illocutionary<br>
force, I would love to hear about them as well!<br>
<br>
Swedish [swe]: (from Bloggmix 2013, accessed through<br>
<a href="http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp</a>)<br>
Det finns nämligen femtioelva sorters myror.<br>
'There are actually many types of ants' (lit. 'There are actually<br>
fifty-eleven types of ants')<br>
<br>
French [fra]: (Lavric 2010, <a href="https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008</a>)<br>
Il n’y a pas trente-six façons de voir la chose.<br>
'There aren't very many ways of seeing the thing' (lit. 'There aren't<br>
thirty-six ways of seeing the thing')<br>
<br>
Danish [dan]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through <a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu</a>)<br>
Han fortalte mig 117 gange, at han ikke gjorde hende noget.<br>
'He told me a thousand times that he didn't do anything to her' (lit. 'He<br>
told me 117 times that he didn't do anything to her')<br>
<br>
English [eng]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through <a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu</a><br>
)<br>
For the umpteenth time, we are not getting a dog.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank you very much in advance for any tips, examples or comments!<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Amanda Kann<br>
<br>
*____________________________________*<br>
<br>
*Amanda Kann*<br>
<br>
Institutionen för lingvistik | *Department of **Linguistics*<br>
<br>
*Stockholms universitet | Stockholm University*<br>
106 91 Stockholm<br>
<br>
<br>
*<a href="mailto:amanda.kann@su.se" target="_blank">amanda.kann@su.se</a> <<a href="mailto:amanda.kann@su.se" target="_blank">amanda.kann@su.se</a>>*<br>
<a href="http://www.ling.su.se" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.ling.su.se</a><br>
<br>
Personuppgiftsbehandling vid Stockholms universitet<br>
<<a href="https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter</a>><br>
*____________________________________*<br>
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Message: 5<br>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 18:26:42 +0200<br>
From: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
To: <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Approximative numerals with emotive content<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:bc97beb4-6a25-0e7e-3654-926920871418@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">bc97beb4-6a25-0e7e-3654-926920871418@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
Modern colloquial Hebrew has a colourful way of referring to a year in <br>
the distant past, but explaining it requires substantial background <br>
information regarding the Hebrew calendar, orthography and the <br>
pronunciation of acronyms.<br>
<br>
1. As we all know the universe was created 5782 years ago.However, dates <br>
in the Hebrew calendar are often referred to omitting the 5, so it's now <br>
782.<br>
<br>
2. Hebrew dates are typically referred to using letters instead of <br>
numbers, in accordance with the system known as /gematria/ <br>
(<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria).So" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria).So</a> for example, this year is <br>
written as תשפ״ב, which gets transliterated as TŠP"B, where T=400, <br>
Š=300, P=80 and B=2, adding up to 782.<br>
<br>
3. An aside: Hebrew acronyms such as the above are conventionally <br>
written with a " between the penultimate and last letters — does anybody <br>
know where this convention comes from?(I haven't encountered it in any <br>
other language.)<br>
<br>
4. Now for some phonology.Hebrew acronyms, /gematria/-based and <br>
otherwise, are typically pronounced in accordance with templatic <br>
morphology; some of the rules are described in <br>
<a href="http://www.outibatel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Bat-El-1994-acronyms.pdf.For" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.outibatel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Bat-El-1994-acronyms.pdf.For</a> <br>
example, TŠP"B is pronounced as [tašpab], or, to cite another important <br>
date in Israeli history, 1929, or 5229 in the Hebrew calendar, is <br>
written TRP"T and pronounced [tarpat].We're almost there ...<br>
<br>
5. To express the meaning 'a very long time ago', there is the jocular <br>
form תרפפ״ו, or TRPP"W, pronounced [tarapapu], and usually occurring in <br>
the collocation [šnat tarapapu] 'the year tarapapu'.In terms of the <br>
rules of /gematria/ it is ill-formed, since it contains repeated <br>
occurrences of P.And with respect to the phonology of acronyms, it is <br>
also ill-formed, since acronym pronunciations are usually disyllabic, <br>
occasionally trisyllabic, but I don't think there are any attested cases <br>
of quadrisyllabic pronunciations.It just sounds really funny.<br>
<br>
Thus, although its semantics is specific to the expression of time, <br>
Hebrew [šnat tarapapu] would seem to be similar to other approximative <br>
numeral expressions with emotive function that have been discussed in <br>
this thread.<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
On 22/02/2022 16:27, Amanda Kann wrote:<br>
><br>
> Dear typologists,<br>
><br>
> (Apologies to those who have already seen this query through <br>
> LinguistList!)<br>
><br>
> I'm looking for corresponding expressions (in any language) to the <br>
> approximative numeral phrases in the examples below – conventionalized <br>
> numeral expressions which typically express larger, approximate <br>
> numeric quantities and encode some kind of emotive function.<br>
> I'm interested in the composition and value of these numerals, as well <br>
> as their emphatic and emotive functions – if there are other <br>
> expressions in the numeral domain in your language(s) that carry a <br>
> similar illocutionary force, I would love to hear about them as well!<br>
><br>
> Swedish [swe]: (from Bloggmix 2013, accessed through <br>
> <a href="http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp</a> <<a href="http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://spraakbanken.gu.se/korp</a>>)<br>
> Det finns nämligen femtioelva sorters myror.<br>
> 'There are actually many types of ants' (lit. 'There are actually <br>
> fifty-eleven types of ants')<br>
><br>
> French [fra]: (Lavric 2010, <a href="https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008</a> <br>
> <<a href="https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004253247_008</a>>)<br>
> Il n’y a pas trente-six façons de voir la chose.<br>
> 'There aren't very many ways of seeing the thing' (lit. 'There aren't <br>
> thirty-six ways of seeing the thing')<br>
><br>
> Danish [dan]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through <br>
> <a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu</a> <<a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu/</a>>)<br>
> Han fortalte mig 117 gange, at han ikke gjorde hende noget.<br>
> 'He told me a thousand times that he didn't do anything to her' (lit. <br>
> 'He told me 117 times that he didn't do anything to her')<br>
><br>
> English [eng]: (from OpenSubtitles2018, accessed through <br>
> <a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu</a> <<a href="http://opus.nlpl.eu/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://opus.nlpl.eu/</a>>)<br>
> For the umpteenth time, we are not getting a dog.<br>
><br>
> Thank you very much in advance for any tips, examples or comments!<br>
><br>
> Best regards,<br>
><br>
> Amanda Kann<br>
><br>
> *____________________________________*<br>
><br>
> *Amanda Kann*<br>
><br>
> Institutionen för lingvistik | /Department of //Linguistics/<br>
><br>
> *Stockholms universitet | /Stockholm University/*<br>
> 106 91 Stockholm<br>
><br>
><br>
> _amanda.kann@su.se_<br>
> <a href="http://www.ling.su.se" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.ling.su.se</a> <<a href="http://www.ling.su.se/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.ling.su.se/</a>><br>
><br>
> Personuppgiftsbehandling vid Stockholms universitet <br>
> <<a href="https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.su.se/om-webbplats-cookies/personuppgifter</a>><br>
> *____________________________________*<br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Lingtyp mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
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<br>
-- <br>
David Gil<br>
<br>
Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br>
<br>
<a href="mailto:Email%3Agil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">Email:gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<br>
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End of Lingtyp Digest, Vol 89, Issue 26<br>
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</blockquote></div></div>