<div dir="ltr">I would agree with Matthew that these are best described as applicatives, but ones in which the 'pragmatic advancement' function monitored by an applicative is, in addition to the grammatical function coding changes, also required to be monitored by the use of a pragmatically marked word order.<div><br></div><div>Very similar facts are found in Tzutujil, in which the applicative, which indicates an instrumental role (despite having a morpheme cognate with the benefactive applicative in other Mayan languages) also requires the appearance of the instrument object in a preverbal role, which is a pragmatically marked position in a verb-initial language.</div><div><br></div><div>Data from Dayley (1985).</div><div><br></div><div><p class="gmail-MsoHeading9" style="margin:2pt 0cm 0.0001pt 55.3pt;line-height:15pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Times;color:blue"><span lang="EN-US">Xinruuch’eyi jaa7 tza7n chee7</span></p><p class="gmail-MsoHeading9" style="margin:2pt 0cm 0.0001pt 55.3pt;line-height:15pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Times;color:blue"><span lang="EN-US">he:hit:me he with stick</span></p><p class="examplesecond" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 55.3pt;text-align:justify;line-height:12pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Times"></p><p class="examplelast" style="margin:0cm 1cm 2pt 59.55pt;text-align:justify;line-height:12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Times"><span lang="EN-US">‘He hit me with a stick.’</span></p></div><div><br></div><div><p class="gmail-MsoHeading9" style="margin:2pt 0cm 0.0001pt 55.3pt;line-height:15pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Times;color:blue"><span lang="EN-US">Chee7 x(r)uuch’eyb’ei jaa7 inin</span></p><p class="gmail-MsoHeading9" style="margin:2pt 0cm 0.0001pt 55.3pt;line-height:15pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Times;color:blue"><span lang="EN-US">stick he:hit-with:it he 1SG</span></p><p class="examplesecond" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 55.3pt;text-align:justify;line-height:12pt;break-after:avoid;font-size:12pt;font-family:Times"></p><p class="examplelast" style="margin:0cm 1cm 2pt 59.55pt;text-align:justify;line-height:12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:Times"><span lang="EN-US">‘He hit me with a stick.’</span></p></div><div><br></div><div>-Mark</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 at 13:15, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Matthew,</p>
<p>The reason I don't call it an applicative is that (in most cases)
the instrumental argument must occur before the verb in a
topic-like position.</p>
<p>This can be illustrated with the Roon instrumental prefix <i>u-</i>
in the following examples:</p>
<p>
</p>
<table style="border-collapse:collapse;border:none" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">(1)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:0.75in;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="72" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">* Eros-i</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">t-u-karuk</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:85.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="114" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">ai-i-ya</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:0.75in;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="72" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Eros-<span style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">pers</span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">3sg:anim-instr-</span><span style="font-size:10pt">chop</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:85.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="114" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">tree-3<span style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">sg:anim-def</span></span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt"></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"><span> </span>'Eros chopped the tree'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
<table style="border-collapse:collapse;border:none" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">(2)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:62.3pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="83" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">I-seref</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:38.2pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="51" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">kaman</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:22.65pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">fa</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:47.85pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="64" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Eros-i</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">t-u-karuk</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:85.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="114" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">ai-i-ya</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:62.3pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="83" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">1<span style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">sg-</span>look.for</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:38.2pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="51" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">axe</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:22.65pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">for</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:47.85pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="64" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Eros-<span style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">pers</span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">3sg:anim-instr-</span><span style="font-size:10pt">chop</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:85.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="114" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">tree-3<span style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">sg:anim-def</span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"><span> </span>'I'm looking for an axe for Eros
to chop the tree
with'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
<table style="border-collapse:collapse;border:none" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">(3)</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:67.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="90" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">I-seref</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:38.2pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="51" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">kaman</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:47.55pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="63" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Eros-i</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">t-u-karuk</span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt"></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:135pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="180" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">ai-i-ya-ri-ya</span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="width:22.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="30" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"> </span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:67.25pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="90" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">1<span style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">sg-</span>look.for</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:38.2pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="51" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">axe</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:47.55pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="63" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">Eros-<span style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">pers</span></span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:94.5pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="126" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">3sg:anim-instr-</span><span style="font-size:10pt">chop</span></p>
</td>
<td style="width:135pt;padding:0in 5.4pt" width="180" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt">tree-3<span style="font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal">sg:anim-def-3sg:inan-def</span></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt"><span> </span>'I'm looking for the axe that
Eros chopped the tree
with'</span></p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Sentence (1) is ungrammatical, and cannot be salvaged by adding a
postverbal NP or PP referring to the axe; in this respect it
differs from typical applicative constructions. In contrast,
sentences (2) and (3) are fine, because the instrumental prefix <i>u-</i>
is licensed by the preceding NP <i>kaman</i> referring to the
axe. True, this is not exactly the same as how things work in
Philippine languages, but it is more like Philippine instrumental
voice than anything else I can think of (including applicatives).
In particular, in (3), the instrumental prefix is required in
order to license relativization (in contrast, relativization of
other oblique arguments is zero-marked). To use Paul Schachter's
terminology, in both (2) and (3), "subjecthood properties" seem to
be split between the agent (which, as you correctly point out,
controls agreement) and the instrument.<br>
<br>
Very similar patterns obtain in the other Austronesian and
non-Austronesian languages that I mentioned, which — given the
apparent rarity of this pattern elsewhere — is strongly suggestive
of language contact.</p>
<p>David</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 22/02/2022 03:41, Matthew Dryer
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">David,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Why would
you not say that the instrumental construction in Meyah,
Sougb, and Hatam is an applicative, since the A rather than
the instrument controls subject agreement?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Matthew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From: </span></b><span style="color:black">Lingtyp
<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on
behalf of David Gil <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank"><gil@shh.mpg.de></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, February 21, 2022 at 7:40 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">"lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"</a>
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[Lingtyp] query: instrument voice<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear
all,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In
the Austronesian languages of Taiwan, Philippines and
Madagascar, there is a verbal affix that is said to mark
"instrument voice"; loosely speaking, it marks the topic or
subject of the clause as bearing the semantic role of
instrument.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Is
anybody familiar with similar instrument-voice constructions
from other parts of the world?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The
reason I ask is that a similar construction is present also in
some languages of the Bird's Head and Cenderawasih Bay regions
of New Guinea, eg. Biak, Roon, Wamesa and Wooi (Austronesian),
and Hatam, Sougb, Meyah and Moskona (non-Austronesian).
What's curious about this construction is that, unlike the
well-known Austronesian cases, it is the only
morphologically-marked voice in each of the languages in
question; there is no "ordinary" morphological passive
construction. My feeling is that this construction is quite
uncommon cross-linguistically, but I would like to get a feel
for the extent to which this is indeed true.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">David<u></u><u></u></p>
<pre>-- <u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>David Gil<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
<pre>Senior Scientist (Associate)<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
<pre>Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
</pre>
</div>
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