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<p><font face="Calibri">Dear Yi-Yang,</font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri">I would suggest a correction: I think
Michael meant (and I second that completely) that *inclusory*
should not be equated with *comitative* (accompaniment), this is
indeed a separate function. In many languages that do have
inclusory constructions, they use the same marker as comitative,
but there are various alternatives as well (e.g. juxtaposition,
coordination or dedicated marking). See my paper (Arkhipov 2009)
for some discussion and references.</font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri">So what you have is probably
locative-inclusory syncretism and not locative-comitative.<br>
<br>
But this does not mean that inclusory comes first -- especially
given the wide range of locative "flavours" that your markers
cover, I would rather expect the inclusory function to have
developed from (some) locative, but that's just a guess. A local
typology would be indeed fairly interesting!<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri">Arkhipov, Alexander. 2009. Comitative as a
cross-linguistically valid category. In: P. Epps, A. Arkhipov
(eds.) New Challenges in Typology 2: Transcending the Borders
and Refining the Distinctions.<br>
(available on academia.edu:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.academia.edu/15009713/_2009_Comitative_as_a_cross_linguistically_valid_category">https://www.academia.edu/15009713/_2009_Comitative_as_a_cross_linguistically_valid_category</a>)</font></p>
<p>All best,<br>
Alexandre<br>
<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">22/02/2022 20:54, Yi-Yang Cheng пишет:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAK_ru0Q6W5Psf-1+FYQ8aEg4fFJke2CR3N-rtAZ1tx=VLYNhRQ@mail.gmail.com">
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<div>Dear Michael,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I see! If I understand correctly: the starting point would
be the inclusory construction, which could be exploiting other
grammatical phenomena in the language.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Based on this, then, it looks like in Matu'uwal spatial
locative markers are recruited in the inclusory construction,
which is a very restricted environment in which these markers
would be interpreted as indicating accompaniment. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Going back to the original question/problem I had in mind,
this would weaken any argument for establishing comitative as
a case category in the language.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It's still interesting how it's spatial locatives that are
recruited here. I will need to check, but I think in other
closely related (Atayal) languages, it might be the general
coordinator (in the form <i>ru</i>) that serves a similar
function in inclusory construction. This could lead to a nice
typology project on inclusory constructions across these
languages!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks a lot!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yi-Yang<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 11:36
AM Michael Daniel <<a href="mailto:misha.daniel@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">misha.daniel@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">Let me be more specific - my hunch is that you
do not necessarily have to talk about locative - comitative
homophony in case of accompaniment that is limited to
inclusory construction. Think of this - in some languages
inclusory constructions exploit juxtaposition and in some
others, i think, coordination. I am not sure these are solid
grounds for talking about homophony between whatever other
functions of juxtaposition or.coordination and
accompaniment.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">In other words, to my eyes, inclusory
constructions represent a function apart, even if they
have conceptually something in common with accompaniment
and sometimes even originate from comitatives.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Michael Daniel</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">вт, 22 февр. 2022 г.,
22:19 Yi-Yang Cheng <<a href="mailto:ycheng@ucsb.edu"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ycheng@ucsb.edu</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear Michael,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks so much for following up!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes, it appears that this is a case of inclusory
pronominal construction.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We may need to do a dedicated elicitation session
to find out more, but based on my impression and
experience with the language this is only found in the
first person.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So the markers <i>ki</i> and <i>cku</i> always
have locative usages unless they appear in a sentence
with a 1PL agent/actor, in which case they would be
interpreted as indicating accompaniment "with".</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Yi-Yang<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 22, 2022
at 11:05 AM Michael Daniel <<a
href="mailto:misha.daniel@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">misha.daniel@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">Dear Yi-Yang,
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">judging from your examples, this may
be much more specific than comitative / locative
homophony. If I understood well, is this not a
case of not just accompaniment but more
specificall an inclusory pronominal construction
(we X = 'X and I'), somehow restricted to the
first person? Are inclusory constructions attested
elsewhere in the language, with the second and the
third person, and if yes, how do they look? </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Michael Daniel</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">вт, 22 февр. 2022
г., 20:21 Yi-Yang Cheng <<a
href="mailto:ycheng@ucsb.edu" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ycheng@ucsb.edu</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear colleagues,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am working with a colleague of mine on
Matu'uwal (Mayrinax Atayal), a Formosan
language showing a lot of case homophony. When
looking at spatial locatives, we noticed an
interesting case of homophony where markers
that indicate <b>location</b> are formally
identical to what can be analyzed as <b>comitatives</b>.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is specifically seen in the markers <b><i>ki</i>
(proper noun)</b> and <b><i>cku</i>
(referential common noun)</b>. In the
following sentences, they indicate
participants construed as goals/recipients. To
save space, I will not include more examples,
but the two markers can indicate location and
source as well.<br>
</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li><i>Muway kuing cu gaghap <u><b>ki</b>
Hayung</u></i>. 'I gave some seeds <b>to
Hayung.</b>'</li>
<li><i>Pabuway kuing cu gaghap <u><b>cku</b>
ulaqi' hani</u></i>. 'I will give some
seeds <b>to this child</b>.'</li>
</ul>
The two markers can also be used to indicate
accompaniment, but this is possible only when
the agent/actor is a first-person plural
pronoun. Notice that the proper noun vs.
common noun distinction is maintained,
although the latter allows still another
marker <i>kinku</i> as well. (It looks like <i>kinku</i>
only has the comitative function. It is still
unclear whether there is any semantic or
functional difference between <i>kinku</i>
and <i>cku</i>, though.)<br>
</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li><i>Mitaal cami <u><b>ki</b> Lawsing</u>
cu sinku'</i>. 'We checked on the
hunting traps <b>with Lawsing</b>.' (We =
me and Lawsing)</li>
<li><i>Maglu cami <u><b>cku/<i><u><b>kinku</b></u></i>
</b> xuil</u> musa' i ragiyax</i>. 'We
went into the forest <b>with the dog</b>.'
(We = me and the dog)</li>
</ul>
We have been wondering whether we should posit
two separate case categories here --- spatial
locative vs. comitative --- and were wondering
if anyone can offer us some suggestions or
directions.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is it common for spatial locatives and
comitatives to be formally identical? Is this
an unusual case of case homophony?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also, if anyone can recommend any readings
pertaining to whether a morpheme should be
analyzed as a case marker instead of a
preposition, it would be very helpful as well!<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you all very much in advance for
this!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div>Yi-Yang<font color="#888888"><br>
</font></div>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Yi-Yang Cheng (he/him)<br>
</div>
<div>Ph.D. Candidate in Linguistics<font
color="#888888"> |</font> University of
California, Santa Barbara</div>
<div>Visiting Scholar<font color="#888888">
|</font> Fairbank Center for Chinese
Studies, Harvard University</div>
<div>Graduate Student Affiliate | Center for
Taiwan Studies, UC Santa Barbara</div>
<div><a href="http://cheng-yiyang.org"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://cheng-yiyang.org</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
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-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Yi-Yang Cheng (he/him)<br>
</div>
<div>Ph.D. Candidate in Linguistics<font
color="#888888"> |</font> University of
California, Santa Barbara</div>
<div>Visiting Scholar<font color="#888888"> |</font>
Fairbank Center for Chinese Studies, Harvard
University</div>
<div>Graduate Student Affiliate | Center for Taiwan
Studies, UC Santa Barbara</div>
<div><a href="http://cheng-yiyang.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://cheng-yiyang.org</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Yi-Yang Cheng (he/him)<br>
</div>
<div>Ph.D. Candidate in Linguistics<font color="#888888"> |</font>
University of California, Santa Barbara</div>
<div>Visiting Scholar<font color="#888888"> |</font> Fairbank
Center for Chinese Studies, Harvard University</div>
<div>Graduate Student Affiliate | Center for Taiwan Studies,
UC Santa Barbara</div>
<div><a href="http://cheng-yiyang.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://cheng-yiyang.org</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
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