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<p><font face="Calibri">Dear Yi-Yang,</font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri">It looks like I misunderstood a passage in
your last message (what was recruited where), sorry about that!<br>
And yes, I would be interested to know what grows from it.</font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri">All best,<br>
Sasha</font><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">23/02/2022 21:52, Yi-Yang Cheng пишет:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAK_ru0StX-+LC2=xSQfbRR=RjyVww5Y-8WtfGerun9LvwjBhvg@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>Thanks so much for following up and for your paper, Sasha!
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As Michael pointed out I wasn't thinking in terms of
diachrony. In terms of the original question I had in mind, I
think the fact that the "comitative" function is so restricted
to the inclusory construction would suggest against
establishing a comitative case category in the language.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am very inclined to explore what you were considering,
though, which is that diachronically the locative functions
may have come first. In fact, the Matu'uwal locatives have a
lot of non-locative functions. The patterns are a bit messy,
but some are used to mark the "E" argument (in what Dixon
calls the extended intransitive clause), and others are used
to mark temporal expressions. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>These "extended" functions are very tricky in terms of how
to organize them into paradigms, compared to both the spatial
locative functions and core case markers (which may suggest a
relatively short period of development?).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In any case, I think a local typology project would be a
natural first step for investigating this more!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Yi-Yang<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 2:06
AM Alexandre Arkhipov <<a href="mailto:sarkipo@yandex.ru"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">sarkipo@yandex.ru</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><font face="Calibri">Dear Yi-Yang,</font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri">I would suggest a correction: I
think Michael meant (and I second that completely) that
*inclusory* should not be equated with *comitative*
(accompaniment), this is indeed a separate function. In
many languages that do have inclusory constructions,
they use the same marker as comitative, but there are
various alternatives as well (e.g. juxtaposition,
coordination or dedicated marking). See my paper
(Arkhipov 2009) for some discussion and references.</font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri">So what you have is probably
locative-inclusory syncretism and not
locative-comitative.<br>
<br>
But this does not mean that inclusory comes first --
especially given the wide range of locative "flavours"
that your markers cover, I would rather expect the
inclusory function to have developed from (some)
locative, but that's just a guess. A local typology
would be indeed fairly interesting!<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri">Arkhipov, Alexander. 2009.
Comitative as a cross-linguistically valid category. In:
P. Epps, A. Arkhipov (eds.) New Challenges in Typology
2: Transcending the Borders and Refining the
Distinctions.<br>
(available on <a href="http://academia.edu"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">academia.edu</a>:
<a
href="https://www.academia.edu/15009713/_2009_Comitative_as_a_cross_linguistically_valid_category"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.academia.edu/15009713/_2009_Comitative_as_a_cross_linguistically_valid_category</a>)</font></p>
<p>All best,<br>
Alexandre<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>22/02/2022 20:54, Yi-Yang Cheng пишет:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear Michael,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I see! If I understand correctly: the starting
point would be the inclusory construction, which could
be exploiting other grammatical phenomena in the
language.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Based on this, then, it looks like in Matu'uwal
spatial locative markers are recruited in the
inclusory construction, which is a very restricted
environment in which these markers would be
interpreted as indicating accompaniment. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Going back to the original question/problem I had
in mind, this would weaken any argument for
establishing comitative as a case category in the
language.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It's still interesting how it's spatial locatives
that are recruited here. I will need to check, but I
think in other closely related (Atayal) languages, it
might be the general coordinator (in the form <i>ru</i>)
that serves a similar function in inclusory
construction. This could lead to a nice typology
project on inclusory constructions across these
languages!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks a lot!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yi-Yang<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 22, 2022
at 11:36 AM Michael Daniel <<a
href="mailto:misha.daniel@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">misha.daniel@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
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<div dir="auto">Let me be more specific - my hunch is
that you do not necessarily have to talk about
locative - comitative homophony in case of
accompaniment that is limited to inclusory
construction. Think of this - in some languages
inclusory constructions exploit juxtaposition and in
some others, i think, coordination. I am not sure
these are solid grounds for talking about homophony
between whatever other functions of juxtaposition
or.coordination and accompaniment.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">In other words, to my eyes,
inclusory constructions represent a function
apart, even if they have conceptually something in
common with accompaniment and sometimes even
originate from comitatives.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Michael Daniel</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">вт, 22 февр. 2022
г., 22:19 Yi-Yang Cheng <<a
href="mailto:ycheng@ucsb.edu" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ycheng@ucsb.edu</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear Michael,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks so much for following up!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes, it appears that this is a case of
inclusory pronominal construction.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We may need to do a dedicated elicitation
session to find out more, but based on my
impression and experience with the language
this is only found in the first person.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So the markers <i>ki</i> and <i>cku</i>
always have locative usages unless they appear
in a sentence with a 1PL agent/actor, in which
case they would be interpreted as indicating
accompaniment "with".</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Yi-Yang<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb
22, 2022 at 11:05 AM Michael Daniel <<a
href="mailto:misha.daniel@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">misha.daniel@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">Dear Yi-Yang,
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">judging from your examples,
this may be much more specific than
comitative / locative homophony. If I
understood well, is this not a case of not
just accompaniment but more specificall an
inclusory pronominal construction (we X =
'X and I'), somehow restricted to the
first person? Are inclusory constructions
attested elsewhere in the language, with
the second and the third person, and if
yes, how do they look? </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Michael Daniel</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">вт, 22
февр. 2022 г., 20:21 Yi-Yang Cheng <<a
href="mailto:ycheng@ucsb.edu"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ycheng@ucsb.edu</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear colleagues,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am working with a colleague of
mine on Matu'uwal (Mayrinax Atayal), a
Formosan language showing a lot of
case homophony. When looking at
spatial locatives, we noticed an
interesting case of homophony where
markers that indicate <b>location</b>
are formally identical to what can be
analyzed as <b>comitatives</b>.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is specifically seen in the
markers <b><i>ki</i> (proper noun)</b>
and <b><i>cku</i> (referential common
noun)</b>. In the following
sentences, they indicate participants
construed as goals/recipients. To save
space, I will not include more
examples, but the two markers can
indicate location and source as well.<br>
</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li><i>Muway kuing cu gaghap <u><b>ki</b>
Hayung</u></i>. 'I gave some
seeds <b>to Hayung.</b>'</li>
<li><i>Pabuway kuing cu gaghap <u><b>cku</b>
ulaqi' hani</u></i>. 'I will
give some seeds <b>to this child</b>.'</li>
</ul>
The two markers can also be used to
indicate accompaniment, but this is
possible only when the agent/actor is
a first-person plural pronoun. Notice
that the proper noun vs. common noun
distinction is maintained, although
the latter allows still another marker
<i>kinku</i> as well. (It looks like <i>kinku</i>
only has the comitative function. It
is still unclear whether there is any
semantic or functional difference
between <i>kinku</i> and <i>cku</i>,
though.)<br>
</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li><i>Mitaal cami <u><b>ki</b>
Lawsing</u> cu sinku'</i>. 'We
checked on the hunting traps <b>with
Lawsing</b>.' (We = me and
Lawsing)</li>
<li><i>Maglu cami <u><b>cku/<i><u><b>kinku</b></u></i>
</b> xuil</u> musa' i ragiyax</i>.
'We went into the forest <b>with
the dog</b>.' (We = me and the
dog)</li>
</ul>
We have been wondering whether we
should posit two separate case
categories here --- spatial locative
vs. comitative --- and were wondering
if anyone can offer us some
suggestions or directions.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is it common for spatial locatives
and comitatives to be formally
identical? Is this an unusual case of
case homophony?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also, if anyone can recommend any
readings pertaining to whether a
morpheme should be analyzed as a case
marker instead of a preposition, it
would be very helpful as well!<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you all very much in advance
for this!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div>Yi-Yang<font color="#888888"><br>
</font></div>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Yi-Yang Cheng (he/him)<br>
</div>
<div>Ph.D. Candidate in Linguistics<font
color="#888888"> |</font>
University of California, Santa
Barbara</div>
<div>Visiting Scholar<font
color="#888888"> |</font>
Fairbank Center for Chinese
Studies, Harvard University</div>
<div>Graduate Student Affiliate |
Center for Taiwan Studies, UC
Santa Barbara</div>
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<div>Yi-Yang Cheng (he/him)<br>
</div>
<div>Ph.D. Candidate in Linguistics<font
color="#888888"> |</font> University of
California, Santa Barbara</div>
<div>Visiting Scholar<font color="#888888"> |</font>
Fairbank Center for Chinese Studies, Harvard
University</div>
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Taiwan Studies, UC Santa Barbara</div>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div>Yi-Yang Cheng (he/him)<br>
</div>
<div>Ph.D. Candidate in Linguistics<font
color="#888888"> |</font> University of
California, Santa Barbara</div>
<div>Visiting Scholar<font color="#888888"> |</font>
Fairbank Center for Chinese Studies, Harvard
University</div>
<div>Graduate Student Affiliate | Center for Taiwan
Studies, UC Santa Barbara</div>
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moz-do-not-send="true"
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<div>Yi-Yang Cheng (he/him)<br>
</div>
<div>Ph.D. Candidate in Linguistics<font color="#888888"> |</font>
University of California, Santa Barbara</div>
<div>Visiting Scholar<font color="#888888"> |</font> Fairbank
Center for Chinese Studies, Harvard University</div>
<div>Graduate Student Affiliate | Center for Taiwan Studies,
UC Santa Barbara</div>
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