<div dir="ltr">While there are distinct verbs for hit (sg) and hit (pl) in Yahgan (genetic isolate from Tierra del Fuego, whose last fluent speaker passed away a few weeks ago), the manner-of-action bipartite verb prefix ak-u:- (from 'hit (sg.) aki + permissive-causative u:- (colon marks tenseness of the vowel preceding it) is extremely common, with very many accompanying main verbs and also following pathway/position/posture suffixes. Yahgan is the only language I'm aware of that displays the full 'bipartite' habit, though unlike many western North American languages with it, there are no limitations on the numbers of roots that can be drawn into the stem other than short-term memory. Some concepts are normally only expressed through such bipartite constructions, such as 'kill', which is aku:pvna (v schwa), literally 'strike-(allow-to)-die', or 'strike dead'.<div><br></div><div>Jess Tauber</div></div><div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br>
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</table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1"></a></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 12:28 PM Martin Haspelmath <<a href="mailto:martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de">martin_haspelmath@eva.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
Spike Gildea is quite right that 'hit' is not a "prototypical"
transitive verb in that it does not denote a change of state (cf.
Lazard 2002: 152, where this is spelled out very clearly). However,
in our study of valency patterns across 36 languages (Valency
Patterns Leipzig, <a href="http://valpal.info" target="_blank">valpal.info</a>), we did not find substantial evidence
for different coding patterns with 'hit' compared to 'break', 'beat'
or 'kill' (Hartmann et al. 2013; Haspelmath 2015).<br>
<br>
One striking finding of our project was that "transitivity" (as
defined by Lazard) actually extends further in most languages than
would have been expected on the basis of the earlier work by
Tsunoda, Malchukov and others – it seems that the relatively
restricted use of the transitive pattern is (somewhat)
characteristic of Eurasian languages.<br>
<br>
I also agree with Spike that one needs "digestible examples" – as a
regular grammar reader, I often wish that grammar authors would
adopt a more "didactic" or "pedagogical" approach (as suggested by
Sebastian). Naturally occurring examples are great, but for the
grammar reader, they are often hard to make sense of.<br>
<br>
I would go further, though, in pointing out that there need not be
anything wrong with unnatural examples if we are confident of the
analysis. One thing that is really special about Human Language is
that we can talk about anything, including unlikely or even
impossible situations. We are used to inflectional paradigms that
contain very rare forms (e.g. Ancient Greek Pluperfect Middle
ἐπέπραξο 'thou hadst done for thyself'), and we may think of
syntactic examples as *paradigmatic* in a similar way. (In fact, I
have argued that the idea of *completing the syntactic paradigms*
was the major positive innovation of linguistics in the 1960s:
<a href="https://inference-review.com/letter/reassessing-the-legacy-of-aspects" target="_blank">https://inference-review.com/letter/reassessing-the-legacy-of-aspects</a>).<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
***********************<br>
<br>
<font size="2">References<br>
<br>
</font>
<div style="line-height:1.35;margin-left:2em">
<div><font size="2">Hartmann, Iren &
Haspelmath, Martin & Taylor, Bradley (eds.). 2013. <i>The
Valency Patterns Leipzig online database</i>. Leipzig: Max
Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. (<a href="https://valpal.info/" target="_blank">https://valpal.info/</a>)
(Accessed March 16, 2022.)</font></div>
<font size="2"><span title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=The%20Valency%20Patterns%20Leipzig%20online%20database&rft.place=Leipzig&rft.publisher=Max%20Planck%20Institute%20for%20Evolutionary%20Anthropology&rft.aufirst=Iren&rft.aulast=Hartmann&rft.au=Iren%20Hartmann&rft.au=Martin%20Haspelmath&rft.au=Bradley%20Taylor&rft.date=2013"></span></font></div>
<div style="line-height:1.35;margin-left:2em">
<div><font size="2">Haspelmath, Martin. 2015.
Transitivity prominence. In Malchukov, Andrej L. & Comrie,
Bernard (eds.), <i>Valency classes in the world’s languages:
A comparative handbook (Volume 1)</i>, 131–147. Berlin: De
Gruyter Mouton. (<a href="https://zenodo.org/deposit/4551122" target="_blank">https://zenodo.org/deposit/4551122</a>)</font></div>
</div>
<div style="line-height:1.35;margin-left:2em">
<div><font size="2">Lazard, Gilbert. 2002.
Transitivity revisited as an example of a more strict approach
in typological research. <i>Folia Linguistica</i> 36(3–4).
141–190. (doi:<a href="https://doi.org/10.1515/flin.2002.36.3-4.141" target="_blank">10.1515/flin.2002.36.3-4.141</a>)</font></div>
<font size="2"><span title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1515%2Fflin.2002.36.3-4.141&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Transitivity%20revisited%20as%20an%20example%20of%20a%20more%20strict%20approach%20in%20typological%20research&rft.jtitle=Folia%20Linguistica&rft.volume=36&rft.issue=3-4&rft.aufirst=Gilbert&rft.aulast=Lazard&rft.au=Gilbert%20Lazard&rft.date=2002&rft.pages=141%E2%80%93190&rft.spage=141&rft.epage=190&rft.issn=0165-4004"></span></font></div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
Am 22.03.22 um 16:19 schrieb Spike Gildea:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Two quick
thoughts provoked by this interesting discussion:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" type="1" start="1">
<li style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:11pt">With the modern ability to
record, transcribe, and translate natural speech, modern
linguists should be well beyond the world where we make up
sentences for speakers to translate and then use such
sentences to construct a grammar of the language. Much of
the weirdness of linguists creating falsely violent images
of a speech community will go away when the examples are
selected from narratives or conversations. If fully
natural speech contains excessive complexity (e.g., too
many discourse particles), then naturally-occurring
sentences can be simplified to make more digestible
examples. In my own corpora of Cariban languages, ‘hit’ is
relatively rare (although beautifully illustrated in the
fables), ‘kill’ is extremely common, ‘break’, ‘cut’,
‘clear (a field)’, ‘plant’ and ‘harvest’ are quite common,
and ‘hug’ and ‘kiss’ are vanishingly rare.<u></u><u></u></span></li>
<li style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:11pt">As laid out in Fillmore (1970)
the verb ‘hit’ is actually not a prototypical transitive
verb with an affected patient, it is a prototypical
contact-object verb whose direct object may or may not be
affected by the contact. For example, if I hit a stone or
Superman, my hand will surely be more affected than the
object — the fact that humans are often affected when hit
by other humans is arguably not a part of the denotation
of ‘hit’. This is also reflected in the typological
pattern that the second argument of contact-object verbs
is marked not as a patient, but a location (e.g.
Portuguese
<i>bater em</i> ‘hit LOC’). In English, a construction
reminiscent of a light verb using
<i>give</i> occurs with contact-object verbs, e.g. <i>give
X a kiss, hug, punch in the nose</i>, etc. but not
patient-object verbs *<i>give X a kill, break, plant</i>,
etc.<u></u><u></u></span></li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Spike<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt">Fillmore,
Charles. 1970. The grammar of
<i>hitting</i> and <i>breaking</i>. in R. Jacobs and P.
Rosenbaum, eds., <i>Readings in English Transformational
Grammar</i>, pp. 120-133. Waltham, MA, and London: Ginn.</span><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:0.5in"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">Lingtyp
<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on
behalf of Ilana Mushin <a href="mailto:i.mushin@uq.edu.au" target="_blank"><i.mushin@uq.edu.au></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, March 21, 2022 at 10:47 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>David Nash <a href="mailto:david.nash@anu.edu.au" target="_blank"><david.nash@anu.edu.au></a>,
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic
examples<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU">Hi David. I was
thinking more about what descriptive linguists do rather
than what typologists do, although the two are quite
symbiotic. The design space of language that canonical
typology works within is about ‘theoretical spaces of
possibilities’. I guess I’m thinking about what this might
look like if we moved away from theoretical spaces that
derive from notional ideas of grammar derived from the
classical (Western) grammatical tradition, but rather are
built from the bottom up on the basis of what people talk
about when they talk. There are various approaches to
grammar trying to reconceptualise what grammar looks like
outside of our familiar architectures borne from the
intellectual traditions that most of us in the European
language-speaking world were raised in (Randy LaPolla comes
to mind). Technology just gets better and better for us in
this respect, making it easier to work with ordinary
conversation (which is the home of most language use), and
I’m aware of empirical corpus based approaches to language
description which enable better generalisations over
grammar, founded on large numbers of recordings of ordinary
talk.
</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU">However the
descriptive data that feeds into typological claims are
based on data sets of variable quality, which I think
obscures things like, for example, the importance of
transitive clauses with two nominal arguments in the grand
scheme of things. There’s no quick fix here, I think.
</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU">I realise this takes
us a long way from the original point, which was about using
violent sentences in grammars. But focusing on what people
talk the most about (which may vary), without feeling
constrained to find the most transitive construction
possible, might be a good start.
</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU">Ilana</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU">-- </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">Ilana
Mushin</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">Professor
of Linguistics</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">Deputy
Head of School</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">President,
Australian Linguistic Society</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:0.5in"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">David Nash <a href="mailto:david.nash@anu.edu.au" target="_blank"><david.nash@anu.edu.au></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 12:57 pm<br>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Cc: </b>Ilana Mushin <a href="mailto:i.mushin@uq.edu.au" target="_blank"><i.mushin@uq.edu.au></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic
examples</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU">A short answer Ilana
would be: 'Canonical Typology'
</span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.smg.surrey.ac.uk/approaches/canonical-typology/__;!!C5qS4YX3!WGdWA01L237F5F0a2bceOL2iYmuFKQ3uYJNQdyeitmsD4_5y4bRoTl4mLfZUa5se$" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU">https://www.smg.surrey.ac.uk/approaches/canonical-typology/</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU"><br>
With pedagogical implications.<br>
<br>
Yes, a great discussion topic; and I think Daniel Ross's
post in particular has much food for thought!<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU">On 22/3/2022 13:11,
Ilana Mushin wrote:</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU">Great discussion
topic! I’m intrigued by the focus on finding the best
examples of transitive constructions, usually with two
nominal arguments. These are hard to find ‘in the wild’,
as clauses in everyday talk tends to involve intransitive
(or lesser transitive) constructions with at least one
zero or pronominal argument (DuBois’ preferred argument
structure). To what purpose should we be trying to find
the extreme ends of what is possible grammatically, if
this is not something that speakers themselves appear to
be concerned with in their daily uses of language (which
is where grammaticalization takes place)?</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU">Ilana</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU">-- </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">Ilana
Mushin</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">Professor
of Linguistics</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">Deputy
Head of School</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">President,
Australian Linguistic Society</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:0.5in"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">Lingtyp
</span><a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-AU"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU"> on
behalf of Felicity Meakins
</span><a href="mailto:f.meakins@uq.edu.au" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-AU"><f.meakins@uq.edu.au></span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU"><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 11:36 am<br>
<b>To: </b>Spreng, Bettina </span><a href="mailto:bettina.spreng@usask.ca" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-AU"><bettina.spreng@usask.ca></span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">, JOO,
Ian [Student]
</span><a href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-AU"><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">,
</span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-AU">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">
</span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-AU"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU"><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic
examples</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU">Yes although I think
the Hopper and Thomason argument would be about the
relative animacy of the A and O roles
</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">Lingtyp </span>
<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-CA"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA"> on
behalf of "Spreng, Bettina"
</span><a href="mailto:bettina.spreng@usask.ca" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-CA"><bettina.spreng@usask.ca></span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA"><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 10:51 am<br>
<b>To: </b>"JOO, Ian [Student]" </span><a href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-CA"><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">,
</span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-CA">"lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"</span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black">
</span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-CA"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA"><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic
examples</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">I think it’s
definitely worth considering. Prototypically transitive
verbs can be used quite differently.
</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">Hit a ball, a tree,
anything that maybe isn’t a woman?
</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">Chop wood, cut
bread, kiss a woman?</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">Some violent words
can be used in the hunting context. In Inuit languages, we
often use</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">Killing or shooting
a polar bear. There is nothing problematic about that.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">So often, I change
genders in examples because they are so stereotyical. So,
this goes beyond the indigenous stereotypes but
stereotypes in general.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">John kissed Mary.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">Mary likes John.
</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">John gives Mary a
book.
</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">With females being
receivers, or receptacles, subjects of psych verbs, etc.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">It goes beyond the
indigenous context but that is a particularly sensitive
one.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">Once you pay
attention, it’s quite blatant.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">Dr.
Bettina Spreng</span></b><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">Assistant
Professor, Department of Linguistics</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">College
of Arts & Sciences | University of Saskatchewan</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">P:
(306) 966-1440</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">Arts
Building, Room 911</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">9
Campus Drive, Saskatoon, SK S7N 5A5</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><b><span style="font-size:11pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt"> Lingtyp
</span><a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></span></a><span style="font-size:11pt">
<b>On Behalf Of </b>JOO, Ian [Student]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 21, 2022 6:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic
examples</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style="border:1pt solid rgb(156,101,0);padding:2pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in;line-height:12pt;background:rgb(255,235,156)">
<span style="color:rgb(156,101,0)" lang="EN-CA">CAUTION:</span><span style="color:black" lang="EN-CA"> External to USask.
Verify sender and use caution with links and
attachments. Forward suspicious emails to
</span><span style="color:black"><a href="mailto:phishing@usask.ca" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-CA">phishing@usask.ca</span></a></span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<div name="messageBodySection">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">Is “hug” and
“carry” as transtive as “hit”, though?<br>
According to Hopper and Thompson (1980), one of the
factors of transitivity is the affectedness of the
patient.<br>
Hugging or carrying someone does not affect them as
much as hitting does.<br>
Also “hug” is not so basic a word as “hit” is, which
is in the Swadesh List or the Leipzig-Jakarta List.<br>
Of course, hitting someone is a bad thing to do. But
I don’t think linguists should avoid certain
sentences because they depict something morally bad.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div name="messageSignatureSection">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA"><br>
Regards, </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">Ian</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div name="messageReplySection">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">On 22. Mar 2022,
00:54 +0100, Felicity Meakins <</span><a href="mailto:f.meakins@uq.edu.au" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">f.meakins@uq.edu.au</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">>, wrote:</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid windowtext;padding:0in 0in 0in 8pt;margin:3.75pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">Hi all,</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">We also
comment on this in our field methods textbook (p.
129) and use a reflection from Torres Strait
Islander linguist Al Harvey about this issue to
illustrate how it can affect communities:</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">Meakins, F.,
Green, J., & Turpin, M. (2018).
<i>Understanding linguistic fieldwork</i>. London:
Routledge.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">“One of the
problems with publishing some of the sentences
made up by linguists is that they become
instantiations of culture and may perpetuate
negative stereotypes about often already
marginalised people. For example, grammars are
full of sen- tences exemplifying transitivity
using verbs that denote violence. ‘Hit’ is a
classic transitive verb, but so is ‘hug’ or
‘carry’. When you construct sentences for elicita-
tion, avoid topics that refer to violence, sex,
alcohol, drugs (including smoking), child abuse or
neglect, as these may upset people down the track.
Also bear in mind that descendants of the speakers
may read the grammar in years to come, or may be
an audience member in a presentation using data
you collected. Imagine that you are trying to
re-construct your language and the only verb in
the corpus is ‘hit’!</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><b><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">Perpetuating
negative stereotypes of communities – Al Harvey</span></b><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:1in"><span lang="EN-CA">My
name is Al Harvey, I am of Saibai Island descent
and am currently work- ing on a project to
preserve, document and protect the Top Western
Torres Strait Island dialect of Kalaw Kawaw Ya
(KKY).</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:1in;text-indent:0.5in"><span lang="EN-CA">Today KKY, like many other Australian
Indigenous languages, is endan- gered. The loss of
languages is more than just the loss of spoken
word. It has always been explained to me that
languages are a reflection of a peo- ple’s soul
and way of living in the world. Speakers and
descendants of a language have a role to play in
the preservation and maintenance of that language
but so too do people who work with those
languages, including linguists. It’s important
that linguists are cognisant of the role they play
in acting as a facilitator in the preservation of
languages. Linguists also need to be aware that
language data gathered is presented in a way that
reflects the good faith in which it was given.
</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:1in;text-indent:0.5in"><span lang="EN-CA">I was at a linguistics workshop
recently where the presenters offered sen- tences
from an Aboriginal language. One of the sentences
presented in the targeted language translated into
English as ‘The man hit the woman’. For the
purpose of the exercise it seemed to me to be an
unnecessary display of a negative stereotype in a
forum of predominately non-Indigenous linguists.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:1in;text-indent:0.5in"><span lang="EN-CA">Thinking of language data beyond
something to be scientifically analysed and being
cognisant that the language you’re working with
comes from the soul of a people would surely go
some way to avoiding such unnecessary
representations.”</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">Regards,
Felicity</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-GB">_________________________________________</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:gray" lang="EN-GB">Prof Felicity Meakins FASSA |
Australian Research Council (ARC) Future
Fellow |</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><b><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">
</span><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">Lingtyp <</span><a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">> on behalf of Hagay Schurr <</span><a href="mailto:hschurr@gradcenter.cuny.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-CA">hschurr@gradcenter.cuny.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">><br>
<b>Date:</b> Saturday, 19 March 2022 at 4:19 am<br>
<b>To:</b> "</span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">" <</span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic
examples</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">Dear Sebastian, </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">I'm only aware of the
debate around LSA guidelines in the
early 2000's, including, among others,
Postal's (2003, 187) reply :</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-left:1in"><span><span lang="EN-CA">"it is arbitrary and
discriminatory to try policing them
only with respect to one or more
favored victim groups, the policing
code is necessarily incompatible with
the principle of free speech, and,
finally, it is in any event not
possible to actually codify usage
conditions that genuinely pick out all
and only the offensive. Given all
this, codes like the LSA guidelines
are in part harmful and in part
useless." (Postal 2003, 187).</span></span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">Postal's paper will lead you to
some relevant publications that defends policing
to some extent.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">Best,</span></span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">Hagay</span></span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1in"><span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34);background:white" lang="EN-CA">Postal, P. M. (2003). Policing
the content of linguistic examples. <i>Language</i>, <i>79</i>(1),
182-188.</span></span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
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<span style="color:black">Lingtyp <</span></span><a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">> on behalf of </span><a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA"> <</span><a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 18, 2022 12:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> </span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA"> <</span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL]Lingtyp Digest, Vol
90, Issue 21</span><span lang="EN-AU"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Reference for violence (hit, kill)
in articles in linguistics<br>
needed (Sebastian Nordhoff)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 12:51:15 +0100<br>
From: Sebastian Nordhoff <</span><a href="mailto:sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">><br>
To: "</span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">"<br>
<</span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">><br>
Subject: [Lingtyp] Reference for violence
(hit, kill) in articles in<br>
linguistics needed<br>
Message-ID: <</span><a href="mailto:7a23c27d-4cc4-e57b-37c6-ac5570a6d144@glottotopia.de" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">7a23c27d-4cc4-e57b-37c6-ac5570a6d144@glottotopia.de</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt" lang="EN-CA">><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8;
format=flowed<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
I have occasionally been part in discussions
where the frequent use of<br>
violent concepts such as 'hit' or 'kill' in
linguistics is mentioned and<br>
sometimes criticized.<br>
<br>
I believe there is some research article
providing empirical evidence<br>
for linguistic articles being unnecessarily
"violent", but I am unable<br>
to locate it. Could the list members help me?<br>
<br>
Best wishes<br>
Sebastian<br>
<br>
PS: I am aware that 'hit' and 'kill' have a
number of semantic<br>
properties which make them very suitable for a
number of research questions.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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------------------------------<br>
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End of Lingtyp Digest, Vol 90, Issue 21<br>
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<pre cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/" target="_blank">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a></pre>
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