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    Spike Gildea is quite right that 'hit' is not a "prototypical"
    transitive verb in that it does not denote a change of state (cf.
    Lazard 2002: 152, where this is spelled out very clearly). However,
    in our study of valency patterns across 36 languages (Valency
    Patterns Leipzig, valpal.info), we did not find substantial evidence
    for different coding patterns with 'hit' compared to 'break', 'beat'
    or 'kill' (Hartmann et al. 2013; Haspelmath 2015).<br>
    <br>
    One striking finding of our project was that "transitivity" (as
    defined by Lazard) actually extends further in most languages than
    would have been expected on the basis of the earlier work by
    Tsunoda, Malchukov and others – it seems that the relatively
    restricted use of the transitive pattern is (somewhat)
    characteristic of Eurasian languages.<br>
    <br>
    I also agree with Spike that one needs "digestible examples" – as a
    regular grammar reader, I often wish that grammar authors would
    adopt a more "didactic" or "pedagogical" approach (as suggested by
    Sebastian). Naturally occurring examples are great, but for the
    grammar reader, they are often hard to make sense of.<br>
    <br>
    I would go further, though, in pointing out that there need not be
    anything wrong with unnatural examples if we are confident of the
    analysis. One thing that is really special about Human Language is
    that we can talk about anything, including unlikely or even
    impossible situations. We are used to inflectional paradigms that
    contain very rare forms (e.g. Ancient Greek Pluperfect Middle
    ἐπέπραξο 'thou hadst done for thyself'), and we may think of
    syntactic examples as *paradigmatic* in a similar way. (In fact, I
    have argued that the idea of *completing the syntactic paradigms*
    was the major positive innovation of linguistics in the 1960s:
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://inference-review.com/letter/reassessing-the-legacy-of-aspects">https://inference-review.com/letter/reassessing-the-legacy-of-aspects</a>).<br>
    <br>
    Best,<br>
    Martin<br>
    <br>
    ***********************<br>
    <br>
    <font size="2">References<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <div class="csl-bib-body" style="line-height: 1.35; margin-left:
      2em; text-indent:-2em;">
      <div class="csl-entry"><font size="2">Hartmann, Iren &
          Haspelmath, Martin & Taylor, Bradley (eds.). 2013. <i>The
            Valency Patterns Leipzig online database</i>. Leipzig: Max
          Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. (<a
            href="https://valpal.info/" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://valpal.info/</a>)
          (Accessed March 16, 2022.)</font></div>
      <font size="2"><span class="Z3988"
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=The%20Valency%20Patterns%20Leipzig%20online%20database&rft.place=Leipzig&rft.publisher=Max%20Planck%20Institute%20for%20Evolutionary%20Anthropology&rft.aufirst=Iren&rft.aulast=Hartmann&rft.au=Iren%20Hartmann&rft.au=Martin%20Haspelmath&rft.au=Bradley%20Taylor&rft.date=2013"></span></font></div>
    <div class="csl-bib-body" style="line-height: 1.35; margin-left:
      2em; text-indent:-2em;">
      <div class="csl-entry"><font size="2">Haspelmath, Martin. 2015.
          Transitivity prominence. In Malchukov, Andrej L. & Comrie,
          Bernard (eds.), <i>Valency classes in the world’s languages:
            A comparative handbook (Volume 1)</i>, 131–147. Berlin: De
          Gruyter Mouton. (<a href="https://zenodo.org/deposit/4551122"
            class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://zenodo.org/deposit/4551122</a>)</font></div>
    </div>
    <div class="csl-bib-body" style="line-height: 1.35; margin-left:
      2em; text-indent:-2em;">
      <div class="csl-entry"><font size="2">Lazard, Gilbert. 2002.
          Transitivity revisited as an example of a more strict approach
          in typological research. <i>Folia Linguistica</i> 36(3–4).
          141–190. (doi:<a
            href="https://doi.org/10.1515/flin.2002.36.3-4.141">10.1515/flin.2002.36.3-4.141</a>)</font></div>
      <font size="2"><span class="Z3988"
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=info%3Adoi%2F10.1515%2Fflin.2002.36.3-4.141&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Ajournal&rft.genre=article&rft.atitle=Transitivity%20revisited%20as%20an%20example%20of%20a%20more%20strict%20approach%20in%20typological%20research&rft.jtitle=Folia%20Linguistica&rft.volume=36&rft.issue=3-4&rft.aufirst=Gilbert&rft.aulast=Lazard&rft.au=Gilbert%20Lazard&rft.date=2002&rft.pages=141%E2%80%93190&rft.spage=141&rft.epage=190&rft.issn=0165-4004"></span></font></div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
      <br>
      <br>
      Am 22.03.22 um 16:19 schrieb Spike Gildea:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Two quick
            thoughts provoked by this interesting discussion:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <ol style="margin-top:0in" type="1" start="1">
          <li class="MsoListParagraph"
            style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt">With the modern ability to
              record, transcribe, and translate natural speech, modern
              linguists should be well beyond the world where we make up
              sentences for speakers to translate and then use such
              sentences to construct a grammar of the language. Much of
              the weirdness of linguists creating falsely violent images
              of a speech community will go away when the examples are
              selected from narratives or conversations. If fully
              natural speech contains excessive complexity (e.g., too
              many discourse particles), then naturally-occurring
              sentences can be simplified to make more digestible
              examples. In my own corpora of Cariban languages, ‘hit’ is
              relatively rare (although beautifully illustrated in the
              fables), ‘kill’ is extremely common, ‘break’, ‘cut’,
              ‘clear (a field)’, ‘plant’ and ‘harvest’ are quite common,
              and ‘hug’ and ‘kiss’ are vanishingly rare.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
          <li class="MsoListParagraph"
            style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt">As laid out in Fillmore (1970)
              the verb ‘hit’ is actually not a prototypical transitive
              verb with an affected patient, it is a prototypical
              contact-object verb whose direct object may or may not be
              affected by the contact. For example, if I hit a stone or
              Superman, my hand will surely be more affected than the
              object — the fact that humans are often affected when hit
              by other humans is arguably not a part of the denotation
              of ‘hit’. This is also reflected in the typological
              pattern that the second argument of contact-object verbs
              is marked not as a patient, but a location (e.g.
              Portuguese
              <i>bater em</i> ‘hit LOC’). In English, a construction
              reminiscent of a light verb using
              <i>give</i> occurs with contact-object verbs, e.g. <i>give
                X a kiss, hug, punch in the nose</i>, etc. but not
              patient-object verbs *<i>give X a kill, break, plant</i>,
              etc.<o:p></o:p></span></li>
        </ol>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Spike<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Fillmore,
            Charles. 1970. The grammar of
            <i>hitting</i> and <i>breaking</i>. in R. Jacobs and P.
            Rosenbaum, eds., <i>Readings in English Transformational
              Grammar</i>, pp. 120-133.  Waltham, MA, and London: Ginn.</span><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
          1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
          <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><b><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">From:
              </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
              lang="EN-AU">Lingtyp
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on
              behalf of Ilana Mushin <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:i.mushin@uq.edu.au"><i.mushin@uq.edu.au></a><br>
              <b>Date: </b>Monday, March 21, 2022 at 10:47 PM<br>
              <b>To: </b>David Nash <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david.nash@anu.edu.au"><david.nash@anu.edu.au></a>,
              <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
              <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic
              examples<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU">Hi David. I was
            thinking more about what descriptive linguists do rather
            than what typologists do, although the two are quite
            symbiotic. The design space of language that canonical
            typology works within is about ‘theoretical spaces of
            possibilities’. I guess I’m thinking about what this might
            look like if we moved away from theoretical spaces that
            derive from notional ideas of grammar derived from the
            classical (Western) grammatical tradition, but rather are
            built from the bottom up on the basis of what people talk
            about when they talk. There are various approaches to
            grammar trying to reconceptualise what grammar looks like
            outside of our familiar architectures borne from the
            intellectual traditions that most of us in the European
            language-speaking world were raised in (Randy LaPolla comes
            to mind). Technology just gets better and better for us in
            this respect, making it easier to work with ordinary
            conversation (which is the home of most language use), and
            I’m aware of empirical corpus based approaches to language
            description which enable better generalisations over
            grammar, founded on large numbers of recordings of ordinary
            talk.
          </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
            lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU">However the
            descriptive data that feeds into typological claims are
            based on data sets of variable quality, which I think
            obscures things like, for example, the importance of
            transitive clauses with two nominal arguments in the grand
            scheme of things. There’s no quick fix here, I think.
          </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
            lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU">I realise this takes
            us a long way from the original point, which was about using
            violent sentences in grammars. But focusing on what people
            talk the most about (which may vary), without feeling
            constrained to find the most transitive construction
            possible, might be a good start.
          </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
            lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU">Ilana</span><span
            lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
            lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU">-- </span><span
                  lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">Ilana
                  Mushin</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">Professor
                  of Linguistics</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">Deputy
                  Head of School</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">President,
                  Australian Linguistic Society</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
                  lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU"><img
                    style="width:.6041in;height:.8125in"
                    id="Picture_x0020_5"
                    src="cid:part1.t12f0tYl.0rQkOhY5@eva.mpg.de"
                    class="" width="58" height="78"></span><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">Co-Editor, <i>Interactional
                    Linguistics</i> (</span><a
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                  style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">School of
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              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                  style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">University of
                  Queensland</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                  style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">St Lucia, QLD
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              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
                  lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span
                    style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Apple
                    Chancery";color:black" lang="EN-AU">I
                    acknowledge the Jagera and Turrbal peoples on whose
                    land I live and work. Their sovereignty was never
                    ceded.</span></b><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
            lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
            lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
          1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
          <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><b><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">From:
              </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
              lang="EN-AU">David Nash <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david.nash@anu.edu.au"><david.nash@anu.edu.au></a><br>
              <b>Date: </b>Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 12:57 pm<br>
              <b>To: </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
              <b>Cc: </b>Ilana Mushin <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:i.mushin@uq.edu.au"><i.mushin@uq.edu.au></a><br>
              <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic
              examples</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU">A short answer Ilana
            would be: 'Canonical Typology'
          </span><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.smg.surrey.ac.uk/approaches/canonical-typology/__;!!C5qS4YX3!WGdWA01L237F5F0a2bceOL2iYmuFKQ3uYJNQdyeitmsD4_5y4bRoTl4mLfZUa5se$"
            moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"
              lang="EN-AU">https://www.smg.surrey.ac.uk/approaches/canonical-typology/</span></a><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU"><br>
            With pedagogical implications.<br>
            <br>
            Yes, a great discussion topic; and I think Daniel Ross's
            post in particular has much food for thought!<br>
            David<br>
            <br>
            <br>
          </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU">On 22/3/2022 13:11,
              Ilana Mushin wrote:</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU">Great discussion
              topic! I’m intrigued by the focus on finding the best
              examples of transitive constructions, usually with two
              nominal arguments. These are hard to find ‘in the wild’,
              as clauses in everyday talk tends to involve intransitive
              (or lesser transitive) constructions with at least one
              zero or pronominal argument (DuBois’ preferred argument
              structure). To what purpose should we be trying to find
              the extreme ends of what is possible grammatically, if
              this is not something that speakers themselves appear to
              be concerned with in their daily uses of language (which
              is where grammaticalization takes place)?</span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU">Ilana</span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU">-- </span><span
                    lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">Ilana
                    Mushin</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">Professor
                    of Linguistics</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">Deputy
                    Head of School</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">President,
                    Australian Linguistic Society</span><span
                    lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
                    lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU"><img
                      style="width:.6041in;height:.8125in"
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                      class="" width="58" height="78" border="0"></span><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">Co-Editor, <i>Interactional
                      Linguistics</i> (</span><a
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                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                    style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">School of
                    Languages and Cultures</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                    style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">University of
                    Queensland</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                    style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">St Lucia, QLD
                    4072.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">Ph:
                    (07) 3365 6810</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
                    lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                    style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">CRICOS
                    Provider No: 00025B</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
                    lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span
                      style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Apple
                      Chancery \;color\:black"" lang="EN-AU">I
                      acknowledge the Jagera and Turrbal peoples on
                      whose land I live and work. Their sovereignty was
                      never ceded.</span></b><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><b><span
                  style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">From:
                </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
                lang="EN-AU">Lingtyp
              </span><a
                href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
                  lang="EN-AU"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></span></a><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU"> on
                behalf of Felicity Meakins
              </span><a href="mailto:f.meakins@uq.edu.au"
                moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
                  lang="EN-AU"><f.meakins@uq.edu.au></span></a><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU"><br>
                <b>Date: </b>Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 11:36 am<br>
                <b>To: </b>Spreng, Bettina </span><a
                href="mailto:bettina.spreng@usask.ca"
                moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
                  lang="EN-AU"><bettina.spreng@usask.ca></span></a><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">, JOO,
                Ian [Student]
              </span><a href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk"
                moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
                  lang="EN-AU"><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></span></a><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU">,
              </span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
                  lang="EN-AU">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">
              </span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
                  lang="EN-AU"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></span></a><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-AU"><br>
                <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic
                examples</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU">Yes although I think
              the Hopper and Thomason argument would be about the
              relative animacy of the A and O roles
            </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span
                  style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">From:
                </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
                lang="EN-CA">Lingtyp </span>
              <a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
                  lang="EN-CA"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></span></a><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA"> on
                behalf of "Spreng, Bettina"
              </span><a href="mailto:bettina.spreng@usask.ca"
                moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
                  lang="EN-CA"><bettina.spreng@usask.ca></span></a><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA"><br>
                <b>Date: </b>Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 10:51 am<br>
                <b>To: </b>"JOO, Ian [Student]" </span><a
                href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk"
                moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
                  lang="EN-CA"><ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk></span></a><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">,
              </span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
                  lang="EN-CA">"lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"</span></a><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">
              </span><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"
                  lang="EN-CA"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></span></a><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA"><br>
                <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic
                examples</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
                lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">I think it’s
              definitely worth considering. Prototypically transitive
              verbs can be used quite differently.
            </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">Hit a ball, a tree,
              anything that maybe isn’t a woman?
            </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">Chop wood, cut
              bread, kiss a woman?</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">Some violent words
              can be used in the hunting context. In Inuit languages, we
              often use</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">Killing or shooting
              a polar bear. There is nothing problematic about that.</span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">So often, I change
              genders in examples because they are so stereotyical. So,
              this goes beyond the indigenous stereotypes but
              stereotypes in general.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">John kissed Mary.</span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">Mary likes John.
            </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">John gives Mary a
              book.
            </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">With females being
              receivers, or receptacles, subjects of psych verbs, etc.</span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">It goes beyond the
              indigenous context but that is a particularly sensitive
              one.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">Once you pay
              attention, it’s quite blatant.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span
                  style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">Dr.
                  Bettina Spreng</span></b><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">Assistant
                Professor, Department of Linguistics</span><span
                lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">College
                of Arts & Sciences | University of Saskatchewan</span><span
                lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">P:
                (306) 966-1440</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">Arts
                Building, Room 911</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black" lang="EN-CA">9
                Campus Drive, Saskatoon, SK S7N 5A5</span><span
                lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><b><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt"> Lingtyp
                </span><a
                  href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                  moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></span></a><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt">
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>JOO, Ian [Student]<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 21, 2022 6:05 PM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> </span><a
                  href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                  moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic
                  examples</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div style="border:solid #9C6500 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt
            2.0pt 2.0pt">
            <p class="MsoNormal"
              style="margin-left:1.0in;line-height:12.0pt;background:#FFEB9C">
              <span style="color:#9C6500" lang="EN-CA">CAUTION:</span><span
                style="color:black" lang="EN-CA"> External to USask.
                Verify sender and use caution with links and
                attachments. Forward suspicious emails to
              </span><span style="color:black"><a
                  href="mailto:phishing@usask.ca" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                    lang="EN-CA">phishing@usask.ca</span></a></span><span
                lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
              lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <div name="messageBodySection">
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">Is “hug” and
                    “carry” as transtive as “hit”, though?<br>
                    According to Hopper and Thompson (1980), one of the
                    factors of transitivity is the affectedness of the
                    patient.<br>
                    Hugging or carrying someone does not affect them as
                    much as hitting does.<br>
                    Also “hug” is not so basic a word as “hit” is, which
                    is in the Swadesh List or the Leipzig-Jakarta List.<br>
                    Of course, hitting someone is a bad thing to do. But
                    I don’t think linguists should avoid certain
                    sentences because they depict something morally bad.</span><span
                    lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div name="messageSignatureSection">
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"><br>
                  Regards, </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">Ian</span><span
                    lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div name="messageReplySection">
              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in"><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">On 22. Mar 2022,
                  00:54 +0100, Felicity Meakins <</span><a
                  href="mailto:f.meakins@uq.edu.au"
                  moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"
                    lang="EN-CA">f.meakins@uq.edu.au</span></a><span
                  style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">>, wrote:</span><span
                  lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
              <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
                windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:3.75pt;margin-right:3.75pt;margin-bottom:3.75pt">
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
                      style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">Hi all,</span><span
                      lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
                      style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
                      lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
                      style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">We also
                      comment on this in our field methods textbook (p.
                      129) and use a reflection from Torres Strait
                      Islander linguist Al Harvey about this issue to
                      illustrate how it can affect communities:</span><span
                      lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
                      style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
                      lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <p class="p1" style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
                      style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">Meakins, F.,
                      Green, J., & Turpin, M. (2018).
                      <i>Understanding linguistic fieldwork</i>. London:
                      Routledge.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
                      style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">“One of the
                      problems with publishing some of the sentences
                      made up by linguists is that they become
                      instantiations of culture and may perpetuate
                      negative stereotypes about often already
                      marginalised people. For example, grammars are
                      full of sen- tences exemplifying transitivity
                      using verbs that denote violence. ‘Hit’ is a
                      classic transitive verb, but so is ‘hug’ or
                      ‘carry’. When you construct sentences for elicita-
                      tion, avoid topics that refer to violence, sex,
                      alcohol, drugs (including smoking), child abuse or
                      neglect, as these may upset people down the track.
                      Also bear in mind that descendants of the speakers
                      may read the grammar in years to come, or may be
                      an audience member in a presentation using data
                      you collected. Imagine that you are trying to
                      re-construct your language and the only verb in
                      the corpus is ‘hit’!</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><b><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">Perpetuating
                        negative stereotypes of communities – Al Harvey</span></b><span
                      lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span lang="EN-CA">My
                      name is Al Harvey, I am of Saibai Island descent
                      and am currently work- ing on a project to
                      preserve, document and protect the Top Western
                      Torres Strait Island dialect of Kalaw Kawaw Ya
                      (KKY).</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <p style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:.5in"><span
                      lang="EN-CA">Today KKY, like many other Australian
                      Indigenous languages, is endan- gered. The loss of
                      languages is more than just the loss of spoken
                      word. It has always been explained to me that
                      languages are a reflection of a peo- ple’s soul
                      and way of living in the world. Speakers and
                      descendants of a language have a role to play in
                      the preservation and maintenance of that language
                      but so too do people who work with those
                      languages, including linguists. It’s important
                      that linguists are cognisant of the role they play
                      in acting as a facilitator in the preservation of
                      languages. Linguists also need to be aware that
                      language data gathered is presented in a way that
                      reflects the good faith in which it was given.
                           </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <p style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:.5in"><span
                      lang="EN-CA">I was at a linguistics workshop
                      recently where the presenters offered sen- tences
                      from an Aboriginal language. One of the sentences
                      presented in the targeted language translated into
                      English as ‘The man hit the woman’. For the
                      purpose of the exercise it seemed to me to be an
                      unnecessary display of a negative stereotype in a
                      forum of predominately non-Indigenous linguists.</span><span
                      lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <p style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:.5in"><span
                      lang="EN-CA">Thinking of language data beyond
                      something to be scientifically analysed and being
                      cognisant that the language you’re working with
                      comes from the soul of a people would surely go
                      some way to avoiding such unnecessary
                      representations.”</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
                      style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">Regards,
                      Felicity</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
                      style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
                      lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"
                          lang="EN-GB">_________________________________________</span><span
                          lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:gray"
                          lang="EN-GB">Prof Felicity Meakins FASSA  | 
                          Australian Research Council (ARC) Future
                          Fellow |</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Fwww.dynamicsoflanguage.edu.au*2F&data=04*7C01*7Cdavid.nash*40anu.edu.au*7C1a06b893bb4d41cd475f08da0ba96937*7Ce37d725cab5c46249ae5f0533e486437*7C0*7C0*7C637835120128376133*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C2000&sdata=cdb3PS814od2eElD1ID58uuhLMkuQ2W*2BhsRz1Um86Gw*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!C5qS4YX3!WGdWA01L237F5F0a2bceOL2iYmuFKQ3uYJNQdyeitmsD4_5y4bRoTl4mLaAOS83e$"
                          title="http://www.dynamicsoflanguage.edu.au/"
                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0563C1"
                            lang="EN-GB">ARC ! Centre of Excellence for
                            the Dynamics of Language</span></a><span
                          lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:gray"
                          lang="EN-GB">Fellow of </span><a
href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/aus01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fsocialsciences.org.au*2F&data=04*7C01*7Cdavid.nash*40anu.edu.au*7C1a06b893bb4d41cd475f08da0ba96937*7Ce37d725cab5c46249ae5f0533e486437*7C0*7C0*7C637835120128376133*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C2000&sdata=SEjeU86hezA5LnmcAH*2FxZVcCebJ2U0d*2BJgkOTgoZN*2Fc*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!C5qS4YX3!WGdWA01L237F5F0a2bceOL2iYmuFKQ3uYJNQdyeitmsD4_5y4bRoTl4mLQ3kEh_L$"
                          title="https://socialsciences.org.au/"
                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">Academy
                            of Social Sciences Australia</span></a><span
style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:gray"
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                      style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
                      lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                    1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><b><span
                          style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
                          lang="EN-CA">From:</span></b><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">
                      </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
                        lang="EN-CA">Lingtyp <</span><a
                        href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                        moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                          style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span
                        style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
                        lang="EN-CA">> on behalf of Hagay Schurr <</span><a
                        href="mailto:hschurr@gradcenter.cuny.edu"
                        moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                          style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-CA">hschurr@gradcenter.cuny.edu</span></a><span
                        style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
                        lang="EN-CA">><br>
                        <b>Date:</b> Saturday, 19 March 2022 at 4:19 am<br>
                        <b>To:</b> "</span><a
                        href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                        moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                          style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span
                        style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
                        lang="EN-CA">" <</span><a
                        href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                        moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                          style="font-size:12.0pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span
                        style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
                        lang="EN-CA">><br>
                        <b>Subject:</b> [Lingtyp] On policing linguistic
                        examples</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA"> </span><span
                        lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="elementtoproof"
                              style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
                                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"
                                lang="EN-CA">Dear Sebastian, </span><span
                                lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            <p class="elementtoproof"
                              style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
                                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"
                                lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            <p class="elementtoproof"
                              style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
                                style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"
                                lang="EN-CA">I'm only aware of the
                                debate around LSA guidelines in the
                                early 2000's, including, among others,
                                Postal's (2003, 187) reply  :</span><span
                                lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            <p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
                                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
                                lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                            <p style="margin-left:1.0in"><span
                                class="elementtoproof1"><span
                                  lang="EN-CA">"it is arbitrary and
                                  discriminatory to try policing them
                                  only with respect to one or more
                                  favored victim groups, the policing
                                  code is necessarily incompatible with
                                  the principle of free speech, and,
                                  finally, it is in any event not
                                  possible to actually codify usage
                                  conditions that genuinely pick out all
                                  and only the offensive. Given all
                                  this, codes like the LSA guidelines
                                  are in part harmful and in part
                                  useless." (Postal 2003, 187).</span></span><span
                                lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"
                        lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"
                        lang="EN-CA">Postal's paper will lead you to
                        some relevant publications that defends policing
                        to some extent.</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"
                        lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
                        class="elementtoproof1"><span
                          style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
                          lang="EN-CA">Best,</span></span><span
                        lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
                        class="elementtoproof1"><span
                          style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
                          lang="EN-CA">Hagay</span></span><span
                        lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
                        style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"
                        lang="EN-CA"> </span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
                        class="elementtoproof1"><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white"
                          lang="EN-CA">Postal, P. M. (2003). Policing
                          the content of linguistic examples. <i>Language</i>, <i>79</i>(1),
                          182-188.</span></span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div style="margin-left:.5in">
                    <div style="margin-left:.5in">
                      <div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
                        align="center"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"
                          lang="EN-CA">
                          <hr width="34%" size="0" align="center">
                        </span></div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <div id="divRplyFwdMsg">
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><b><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"
                          lang="EN-CA">From:</span></b><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">
                        <span style="color:black">Lingtyp <</span></span><a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                        moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"
                        lang="EN-CA">> on behalf of </span><a
                        href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                        moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"
                        lang="EN-CA"> <</span><a
                        href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                        moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"
                        lang="EN-CA">><br>
                        <b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 18, 2022 12:00 PM<br>
                        <b>To:</b> </span><a
                        href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                        moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"
                        lang="EN-CA"> <</span><a
                        href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                        moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"
                        lang="EN-CA">><br>
                        <b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL]Lingtyp Digest, Vol
                        90, Issue 21</span><span lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in"><span
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                      <p class="MsoNormal"
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                          style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">Send
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                          Today's Topics:<br>
                          <br>
                             1. Reference for violence (hit,      kill)
                          in articles in linguistics<br>
                                needed (Sebastian Nordhoff)<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
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                          Message: 1<br>
                          Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2022 12:51:15 +0100<br>
                          From: Sebastian Nordhoff <</span><a
                          href="mailto:sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de"
                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de</span></a><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">><br>
                          To: "</span><a
                          href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">"<br>
                                  <</span><a
                          href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</span></a><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">><br>
                          Subject: [Lingtyp] Reference for violence
                          (hit, kill) in articles in<br>
                                  linguistics needed<br>
                          Message-ID: <</span><a
                          href="mailto:7a23c27d-4cc4-e57b-37c6-ac5570a6d144@glottotopia.de"
                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">7a23c27d-4cc4-e57b-37c6-ac5570a6d144@glottotopia.de</span></a><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-CA">><br>
                          Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8;
                          format=flowed<br>
                          <br>
                          Dear all,<br>
                          I have occasionally been part in discussions
                          where the frequent use of<br>
                          violent concepts such as 'hit' or 'kill' in
                          linguistics is mentioned and<br>
                          sometimes criticized.<br>
                          <br>
                          I believe there is some research article
                          providing empirical evidence<br>
                          for  linguistic articles being unnecessarily
                          "violent", but I am unable<br>
                          to locate it. Could the list members help me?<br>
                          <br>
                          Best wishes<br>
                          Sebastian<br>
                          <br>
                          PS: I am aware that 'hit' and 'kill' have a
                          number of semantic<br>
                          properties which make them very suitable for a
                          number of research questions.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          ------------------------------<br>
                          <br>
                          Subject: Digest Footer<br>
                          <br>
_______________________________________________<br>
                          Lingtyp mailing list<br>
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                          <br>
                          <br>
                          ------------------------------<br>
                          <br>
                          End of Lingtyp Digest, Vol 90, Issue 21<br>
                          ***************************************</span><span
                          lang="EN-AU"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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          <pre style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-AU">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre style="margin-left:.5in"><span lang="EN-AU">Lingtyp mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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            style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="EN-AU"> </span><span
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      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a></pre>
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