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<p>Daniel,</p>
<p>There actually are plenty of variants of the game (my favourite
can be viewed here: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PUEoDYpUyQ">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PUEoDYpUyQ</a>).
But not knowing enough German or Thai to understand the original
examples in Ian's query, I was (and remain) puzzled over what
exactly he is looking for, as none of this seems to have any
connection with compositionality. My current best guess is that
what he is after is variants of the game in which the hand-shapes
are referred to by dedicated terms as opposed to terms with other
meanings (such as 'rock, 'paper', etc.) Perhaps 'dedicated'
vs.'metonymical' might capture the distinction more appropriately.</p>
<p>David<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/05/2022 20:07, Daniel Ross wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAAm4d-6TGdn7MdTQ3rdFd+v_me-_jj_kTvUYjBH_2AEzLwOpBg@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">There might be a better term, but clearly
"rock-paper-scissors" is more literal than "ro-sham-bo". The
meaning is somewhat idiomatic regardless (I think what you're
asking about, David), but children sometimes make up variants
with additional or different hand shapes, and so this can be
somewhat productive and compositional (within the idiomatic
context as a name for a game). If you asked a child to play a
variant called "rock-paper-scissors-spaceship" they'd only ask
you what the hand shape is for spaceship and how it interacts
with the other shapes (of course these casual variants can make
the game hopelessly unbalanced, if for example spaceships
destroys everything else!), but that seems like compositionality
to me (again, within the context of a name of the game, listing
the shapes).<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 9:58 AM
Nigel Vincent <<a
href="mailto:nigel.vincent@manchester.ac.uk"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">nigel.vincent@manchester.ac.uk</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Dear
David,</div>
<div
style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I'm
glad you raised this. Exactly the same concern had
occurred to me.</div>
<div
style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Best</div>
<div
style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Nigel</div>
<div
style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</div>
<div id="gmail-m_7498950447701737576Signature">
<div>
<div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px">
<div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px">
<div
style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px">
<div
style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px">
<div
style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px">
<div
style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px">
<div
style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px">Professor
Nigel Vincent, FBA MAE<br>
Professor Emeritus of General
& Romance Linguistics<br>
The University of Manchester</div>
<div
style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Linguistics & English
Language<br>
School of Arts, Languages and
Cultures<br>
</div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>The
University of Manchester</div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<a
href="https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/en/researchers/nigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).html"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/en/researchers/nigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).html</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id="gmail-m_7498950447701737576divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"
color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a
href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
on behalf of David Gil <<a
href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 02 May 2022 6:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Non-compositional words
for “rock-paper-scissors"</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>I am puzzled by the ongoing use of the term
"compositionality" in this thread. Compositionality is
when two (or more) meaningful expressions are brought
together, and the meaning of the resulting construction
is derived from the meanings of the constituent parts.
I don't see how this applies here (or am I missing
something?)<br>
</p>
<p>David<br>
</p>
<div>On 02/05/2022 19:34, Tim Bodt wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Ian,
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>While in standard Dutch, Flemish and Frisian
this game is commonly known by its compositional
names (cf.
<a
href="https://taalverhalen.be/minionderzoekje/een-open-hand-een-vuist-en-twee-vingers/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
https://taalverhalen.be/minionderzoekje/een-open-hand-een-vuist-en-twee-vingers/</a>),
there was a similar game played in the Dutch East
Indies that was called by the non-compositional
name
<i>soeten</i> ('to<i> soet</i>', see the first
page on <a
href="http://www.indischhistorisch.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Anthonio_kinderspelletjes.pdf"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
http://www.indischhistorisch.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Anthonio_kinderspelletjes.pdf</a>).
This name is derived from its Indonesian name
<i>suwit - suit </i>or <i>sut </i>(<a
href="https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suit"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suit</a>,
see also, for example,
<a
href="https://www.kompasiana.com/widikurniawan/60f979c17aa97822be2a9732/cara-suit-yang-perlahan-punah-semut-gajah-manusia"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
https://www.kompasiana.com/widikurniawan/60f979c17aa97822be2a9732/cara-suit-yang-perlahan-punah-semut-gajah-manusia</a>,
also
<i>gamsit</i>, <a
href="https://warisanbudaya.kemdikbud.go.id/?newdetail&detailCatat=7180"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://warisanbudaya.kemdikbud.go.id/?newdetail&detailCatat=7180</a>)<i>.</i> It
is known as
<i>pingsut </i>in Javanese (<a
href="https://jv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingsut"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://jv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingsut</a>)
and
<i>suten </i>in Sundanese (<a
href="https://su.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suten"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://su.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suten</a>).
Instead of rock, paper (or leaf) and scissors and
the whole hand (this game is literally translated
as
<i>batu, gunting, kertas</i> or <i>suwit jepang</i>
'Japanese <i>suwit</i>', <a
href="https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batu_gunting_kertas"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batu_gunting_kertas</a>), the game uses
elephant, man and ant and three fingers.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In using animals, I guess it is similar to the
Japanese game of <i>mushi-ken</i> (虫拳), which
originated in China (<a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sansukumi-ken"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sansukumi-ken</a>).</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best, Tim.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Mon, 2 May 2022 at 16:30, JOO, Ian
[Student] <<a
href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div name="x_messageBodySection">
<div dir="auto"><span>Dear all,</span><br>
<br>
<span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman"">I’m making a list of
non-compositional words for the
rock-paper-scissors game or similar games.</span><br>
<span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman"">In other words, I’m looking for
words for “rock-paper-scissors” that do not
consist of words for “rock”, “paper”, and
“scissors”, or any other meanings, such as
German Schnick Schanck Schnuck, Thai bpao
ying choop, etc.</span><br>
<span style="font-family:"Times New
Roman"">I would much appreciate it if
you could share with me any words for this
game or its kind that do not consist of
meaningful words.</span></div>
</div>
<div name="x_messageSignatureSection"><br>
From Korea,
<div dir="auto">Ian</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
<pre cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
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