<div dir="ltr">There might be a better term, but clearly "rock-paper-scissors" is more literal than "ro-sham-bo". The meaning is somewhat idiomatic regardless (I think what you're asking about, David), but children sometimes make up variants with additional or different hand shapes, and so this can be somewhat productive and compositional (within the idiomatic context as a name for a game). If you asked a child to play a variant called "rock-paper-scissors-spaceship" they'd only ask you what the hand shape is for spaceship and how it interacts with the other shapes (of course these casual variants can make the game hopelessly unbalanced, if for example spaceships destroys everything else!), but that seems like compositionality to me (again, within the context of a name of the game, listing the shapes).<br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 9:58 AM Nigel Vincent <<a href="mailto:nigel.vincent@manchester.ac.uk">nigel.vincent@manchester.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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Dear David,</div>
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I'm glad you raised this. Exactly the same concern had occurred to me.</div>
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Best</div>
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Nigel</div>
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<div style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:13px">Professor Nigel Vincent, FBA MAE<br>
Professor Emeritus of General & Romance Linguistics<br>
The University of Manchester</div>
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<div>Linguistics & English Language<br>
School of Arts, Languages and Cultures<br>
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<a href="https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/en/researchers/nigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).html" target="_blank">https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/en/researchers/nigel-vincent(f973a991-8ece-453e-abc5-3ca198c869dc).html</a></div>
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<div id="gmail-m_7498950447701737576divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 02 May 2022 6:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Non-compositional words for “rock-paper-scissors"</font>
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<p>Dear all,</p>
<p>I am puzzled by the ongoing use of the term "compositionality" in this thread. Compositionality is when two (or more) meaningful expressions are brought together, and the meaning of the resulting construction is derived from the meanings of the constituent
parts. I don't see how this applies here (or am I missing something?)<br>
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<p>David<br>
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<div>On 02/05/2022 19:34, Tim Bodt wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">Hi Ian,
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<div>While in standard Dutch, Flemish and Frisian this game is commonly known by its compositional names (cf.
<a href="https://taalverhalen.be/minionderzoekje/een-open-hand-een-vuist-en-twee-vingers/" target="_blank">
https://taalverhalen.be/minionderzoekje/een-open-hand-een-vuist-en-twee-vingers/</a>), there was a similar game played in the Dutch East Indies that was called by the non-compositional name
<i>soeten</i> ('to<i> soet</i>', see the first page on <a href="http://www.indischhistorisch.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Anthonio_kinderspelletjes.pdf" target="_blank">
http://www.indischhistorisch.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Anthonio_kinderspelletjes.pdf</a>). This name is derived from its Indonesian name
<i>suwit - suit </i>or <i>sut </i>(<a href="https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suit" target="_blank">https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suit</a>, see also, for example,
<a href="https://www.kompasiana.com/widikurniawan/60f979c17aa97822be2a9732/cara-suit-yang-perlahan-punah-semut-gajah-manusia" target="_blank">
https://www.kompasiana.com/widikurniawan/60f979c17aa97822be2a9732/cara-suit-yang-perlahan-punah-semut-gajah-manusia</a>, also
<i>gamsit</i>, <a href="https://warisanbudaya.kemdikbud.go.id/?newdetail&detailCatat=7180" target="_blank">
https://warisanbudaya.kemdikbud.go.id/?newdetail&detailCatat=7180</a>)<i>.</i> It is known as
<i>pingsut </i>in Javanese (<a href="https://jv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingsut" target="_blank">https://jv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingsut</a>) and
<i>suten </i>in Sundanese (<a href="https://su.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suten" target="_blank">https://su.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suten</a>). Instead of rock, paper (or leaf) and scissors and the whole hand (this game is literally translated as
<i>batu, gunting, kertas</i> or <i>suwit jepang</i> 'Japanese <i>suwit</i>', <a href="https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batu_gunting_kertas" target="_blank">
https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batu_gunting_kertas</a>), the game uses elephant, man and ant and three fingers.</div>
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<div>In using animals, I guess it is similar to the Japanese game of <i>mushi-ken</i> (虫拳), which originated in China (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sansukumi-ken" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sansukumi-ken</a>).</div>
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<div>Best, Tim.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">On Mon, 2 May 2022 at 16:30, JOO, Ian [Student] <<a href="mailto:ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk" target="_blank">ian.joo@connect.polyu.hk</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div dir="auto"><span>Dear all,</span><br>
<br>
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman"">I’m making a list of non-compositional words for the rock-paper-scissors game or similar games.</span><br>
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman"">In other words, I’m looking for words for “rock-paper-scissors” that do not consist of words for “rock”, “paper”, and “scissors”, or any other meanings, such as German Schnick Schanck Schnuck, Thai bpao ying choop,
etc.</span><br>
<span style="font-family:"Times New Roman"">I would much appreciate it if you could share with me any words for this game or its kind that do not consist of meaningful words.</span></div>
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<div name="x_messageSignatureSection"><br>
>From Korea,
<div dir="auto">Ian</div>
</div>
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