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</xml><![endif]--><span lang="EN-GB">Dear all,</span></div><div><span lang="EN-GB">I think I can adduce some empirical evidence in support of the idea that
‘need’ holds an intermediate position between predicates involving prototypical
possessors and prototypical experiencers. My evidience comes from from
Bivaltyp, </span>a typological database of bivalent verbs and their encoding
frames (<a href="http://www.bivaltyp.info" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">www.bivaltyp.info</a>).<span lang="EN-GB"></span><span lang="EN-GB"><br></span></div><div><span lang="EN-GB">(Note that the actual context that was used for eliciting the meaning of
“Need” for the database was as follows: “</span>Peter’s house was burglarised
with all the valuables taken. As a consequence, <b>Peter needs money</b>.<span lang="EN-GB">”)</span></div><div><span lang="EN-GB">“Need” turns out to be extremely heterogeneous in terms of coding
possibilities observed in the 90 languages of the database (unfortunately, they
are mostly spoken in the Northern Eurasia, though). In particular, it is easily
compatible with the transitive encoding (e.g., in the Western Europe, see the
red points on the map below). At the same time, it often displays other
patterns that differ in terms of what I refer to as the “locus of
intransitivity”, including:</span> <br></div><div><span lang="EN-GB"><span>-<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size-adjust: none;">
</span></span></span><span lang="EN-GB">“X-locus”
(blue points), where the “needer” is encoded as an oblique (e.g., Dative or the
like, as already mentioned in this thread);</span></div><div><span lang="EN-GB"><span>-<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size-adjust: none;">
</span></span></span><span lang="EN-GB">“Y-locus”
(yellow points), where the thing needed is encoded as an oblique (e.g. Genitive
/ Partititve in the Circum-Baltic area) and even</span><span lang="EN-GB"><span><br></span></span></div><div><span lang="EN-GB"><span>-<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman; font-size-adjust: none;">
</span></span></span><span lang="EN-GB">“XY-locus”
(black points), where both arguments are encoded as obliques</span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span lang="EN-GB"><img title="Inline image" alt="Inline image" src="cid:b8e8f252-3fc2-bd26-1d6f-e6efa2f8ffd5@yahoo.com" class="yahoo-inline-image" style="max-width: 646px; width: 100%;" draggable="false" data-id="<b8e8f252-3fc2-bd26-1d6f-e6efa2f8ffd5@yahoo.com>"><br></span><span lang="EN-GB"></span><div><br></div></div><div><span lang="EN-GB">Other predicate types mentioned in this thread (and almost other
predicate types covered by the database) display less variation in terms of
their encoding. </span></div><div><span lang="EN-GB">For example, “have” (at least in the mainly Eurasian languages of the
database) is basically split between the transitive pattern in the Western
Europe and X-locus (Stassen’s “Oblique (=Locational + Genitive) possessive”) in
the rest of Nporthern Eurasia, as well known from the literature on predicative
possession.</span></div><div><span lang="EN-GB">“Lack” (which is labeled “be short” in the database) is strongly biased
in favour of the X-locus, except for Germanic where it is often transitive, and
the Circum-Baltic area where it often displays the otherwise rare XY-pattern –
a feature that is common for “lack” and “need”.</span></div><div><span lang="EN-GB">“Want” displays a strong transitive bias (there are occasional languages
where the thing wanted is encoded in an oblique position, though; there is also
a hotbed of languages of the Caucasus where the “wanter” is encoded as an
oblique).</span></div><div><span lang="EN-GB">Finally, the various predicates involving undoubtful experiencers are
not homogeneous, but they most vary in whether they do or do not involve an
oblique experiencer.</span> <br></div><div><span lang="EN-GB">My empirical conclusion is that “need” can be conceptualized
differently, with the possibilities reflecting either the fact that the thing
needed is not attained (oblique encoding of the thing needed, possibly related
to some internal negation), or some mental involvement of the needer (its
dative-like encoding), which echoes some semantics-based claims earlier in this
thread.</span><span lang="EN-GB"><br></span></div><div><span lang="EN-GB">[My theoretical conclusion is that discrete semantic roles are not viable,
but I would not try to defend this stance here].</span><span lang="EN-GB"><br></span></div><div><span lang="EN-GB">Best,</span><span lang="EN-GB"><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span lang="EN-GB">Sergey Say</span>
</div></div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div>
</div><div id="ydp8ab1fbc6yahoo_quoted_7244936799" class="ydp8ab1fbc6yahoo_quoted">
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On Saturday, July 2, 2022, 02:51:09 PM GMT+3, Maia Ponsonnet <maia.ponsonnet@uwa.edu.au> wrote:
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Hello,</div>
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<div style="font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="ydp8ab1fbc6yiv6145030209elementToProof">
Sorry to jump in, it is possible that I haven't completely understood the original question. </div>
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<div style="font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="ydp8ab1fbc6yiv6145030209elementToProof">
In line with Jess's suggestion about the desiderative, I'm not sure why a subject of a verb/aux meaning "need" should not be an EXPERIENCER? </div>
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Of course this does not entirely solve the question of the modal projection operated by "need". But it seems to me that the question of the participant's semantic role pertains to the event described, rather than the one being modally projected?</div>
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<div style="font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="ydp8ab1fbc6yiv6145030209elementToProof">
Very interested to hear otherwise! </div>
<div style="font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="ydp8ab1fbc6yiv6145030209elementToProof">
Maïa</div>
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<span id="ydp8ab1fbc6yiv6145030209ms-rterangepaste-start"></span></p>
<p style="font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-size:16px;">
<span style="font-size:small;">Dr Maïa Ponsonnet</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-size:16px;"><span style="font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont;font-size:small;">Chargée de Recherche, Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, </span><span style="font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont;font-size:small;">Laboratoire
Dynamique Du Language</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-size:16px;"><span style="font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont;font-size:small;">Adjunct Researcher, Discipline of Linguistics, The University of Western Australia</span></p>
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<div id="ydp8ab1fbc6yiv6145030209yqt15228" class="ydp8ab1fbc6yiv6145030209yqt0658181774"><div dir="ltr" id="ydp8ab1fbc6yiv6145030209divRplyFwdMsg"><font style="font-size:11pt;" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Jess Tauber <tetrahedralpt@gmail.com><br clear="none">
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, 2 July 2022 12:36 PM<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Volker Gast <volker.gast@uni-jena.de><br clear="none">
<b>Cc:</b> list, typology <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] semantic role of participant that needs something</font>
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<div>
<div dir="ltr">In Yahgan (recently extinct genetic isolate from Tierra del Fuego), suffix -apisiu: (colon marks tenseness of the vowel preceding it) means 'without, not having, so for example simapisiu: ('there is no water' sima potable (fresh) water''. apitvpa
(v schwa) is glossed as 'having no things, poor'. The compiler of the dictionary, the British missionary Thomas Bridges, defines this as based on api 'body' and -tvpan 'only', but my own sense is that *ap(i) here is more at 'have'. But 'need(s)' is variously
ta:pvna, ta:pu:ku:, where ta:pvna is more at 'needs to survive' (as a child its mother's milk, or a person water), while ta:pu:ku: means 'to need but be too afraid, hesitant, or reluctant to try to get'. It is my belief that these forms are derivatives of
the same underlying root shared with -a:pisiu: (-iu: by itself was a productive suffix meaning 'not yet' when appended to verb stems. There are other words along the 'needs/wants' spectrum, more usually dealing with intentions, planning, and such, desire,
liking and love, etc. For example, tama:na means 'be hesitant, reluctant to do, careful'. But there is no sense of 'need' in the gloss laid out in the dictionary. kuru: is 'want, like, desire' generally, and has also found (in addition to the free lexeme)
grammaticalized as an enclitic present tense form kush as a desiderative.
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>Jess Tauber</div>
</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="ydp8ab1fbc6yiv6145030209x_gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 5:51 AM Volker Gast <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:volker.gast@uni-jena.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">volker.gast@uni-jena.de</a>> wrote:<br clear="none">
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<p>Dear Christian,</p>
<p>I think a central question here is whether 'lack' is a predicate with in-built negation, assigning a possessor role to its higher argument and negating the Possessor relation, or whether it is a predicate that assigns the role of a non-Possessor (or would-be-Possessor)
to that argument.</p>
<p>As far as I know, 'lack' licenses NPIs, e.g.:</p>
<p>(1) He lacks any sense of humour.</p>
<p>That seems to show that 'lack' essentially means 'not have', just like 'being dead' means 'not being alive'.</p>
<p>I do not think that 'need' implies 'not have':</p>
<p>(2) I can't lend you my computer, I need it.</p>
<p>I would still maintain that this means "in the best of all worlds, I have a computer".</p>
<p>Perhaps Sebastian is right and the modal always has wide scope, i.e., 'I need a computer' simply means 'I need to have a computer' (though the feeling of not actually having a computer seems to be stronger in the latter case).</p>
<p>I wonder if evaluations should be factored into semantic roles. They seem to be located at a different level of interpretation. A semantic role is a relation between an event and a participant. An evaluation is a relation between an evaluator (the speaker
or a participant) and a proposition. There are certainly predicates that encode both semantic relations and some type of evaluation; but then I would rather say that a predicate encodes some type of semantic role and, in addition, some type of evaluation (rather
than including the evaluation in the semantic role).</p>
<p>I think those problems have been discussed in the context of the adversative passive in Japaneses and related constructions (e.g. external possessors in European languages). For instance, 'Du stehst mir auf dem Fuß' also implies some negative evaluation,
as opposed to 'Du stehst auf meinem Fuß'.</p>
<p>Best,<br clear="none">
Volker<br clear="none">
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<div>On 02.07.22 10:05, Christian Lehmann wrote:<br clear="none">
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<blockquote type="cite">Dear everybody,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
many thanks for your help. At least some of the discussion seems to converge on the following points:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Fillmore-style semantic roles (i.e. semantic relations between a referent and a situation core, conceived at a level of generality that can cover different situation cores [coded by different verbs]) are best analyzed in terms of primitive predicates. (I could
have known this; s.:<br clear="none">
Lehmann, Christian 2006, “Les rôles sémantiques comme prédicats”. <i>Bulletin de la Société de Linguistique de Paris</i> 101/1:67-88.[<a shape="rect" href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/251003441_Les_roles_semantiques_comme_predicats" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">télécharger<img src="https://www.christianlehmann.eu/fundus/pdf.gif" data-inlineimagemanipulating="true"></a>])<br clear="none">
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Then the meaning of 'X <i>lacks</i> Y' may boil down to 'X does not have Y'.<br clear="none">
The meaning of 'X <i>needs</i> Y' would include this proposition and another one like 'for X not to have Y affects X negatively' or alternatively 'for X to have Y would be positive for X' (with obvious choices for more formalization). This would encompass Volker's
notion of 'modalized possessor'.<br clear="none">
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Now assuming that <i>lack</i> has the meaning indicated, then 'for X not to have Y affects X negatively' may be a conversational implicature. On this basis, a language (maybe Yankunytjatjara) may have 'lack' and lack 'need'. On the other hand, there are languages
like German and Cabecar which have 'need', but lack 'lack'.<br clear="none">
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Returning to semantic roles: Given 'X does not have Y', X clearly has the possessor role. However, 'X does not have Y' is not the "point" in the meaning of 'need'; the point is that it would be better for X to have Y. Then the question remains whether there
is any semantic role (already known) which covers this relation of X. Randy argues that the case is analogous to 'love', so the role is experiencer. It is also true that the role of X in 'X needs Y' is often coded as some sort of dative dependent, which would
fit the experiencer interpretation. However, it also fits the possessor interpretation, so this may not be decisive. On the basis of Jürgen's paraphrase, X would be affected. This would be covered by the role of patient. However, no data have been adduced
where X in 'X needs Y' would be in some kind of undergoer role.<br clear="none">
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Maybe the affectation of X here is not the immediate affectation of a patient, but rather the mediate affectation undergone by the participant bearing a benefactive role. Then the role of X in 'Z is (not) good for X' would be the malefactive role; if it is
converted into 'it would be good for X if Z were the case', it is the benefactive role. This would again be compatible with the dative often associated with 'need'.<br clear="none">
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It remains to say that the experiencer and the benefactive roles are not entirely disjunct, as far as definitions known to me go.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Christian<br clear="none">
<div>-- <br clear="none">
<p style="font-size:90%;">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br clear="none">
Rudolfstr. 4<br clear="none">
99092 Erfurt<br clear="none">
<span>Deutschland</span></p>
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