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Dear all,<br>
<br>
Not only the "stress-timed/syllable-timed" typology is questionable,
but it seems that the very notion of "word stress" or "word accent"
(as a general concept) is not yet generally agreed upon by
phonologists, as is noted in the following papers (among others):<br>
<br>
<div class="csl-bib-body" style="line-height: 1.35; margin-left:
2em; text-indent:-2em;">
<div class="csl-entry">Himmelmann, Nikolaus. 2022. On the
comparability of prosodic categories: why ‘stress’ is difficult.
LingBuzz. (<a href="https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/006684"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/006684</a>)
<br>
</div>
<span class="Z3988"
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Adc&rft.type=preprint&rft.title=On%20the%20comparability%20of%20prosodic%20categories%3A%20why%20%E2%80%98stress%E2%80%99%20is%20difficult&rft.description=This%20article%20argues%20that%20the%20prosodic%20category%20stress%20in%20West%20Germanic%20languages%2C%20which%20implicitly%20underlies%20practically%20all%20work%20on%20stress%2C%20is%20a%20complex%20cluster%20concept%20consisting%20of%20at%20least%20six%20dimensions%20which%20in%20turn%20involve%20a%20number%20of%20subdimensions.%20Because%20of%20its%20complexity%2C%20this%20concept%20is%20not%20useful%20for%20cross-linguistic%20comparison.%20A%20promising%20starting%20point%20for%20further%20typological%20inquiry%20is%20one%20of%20the%20six%20dimensions%2C%20i.e.%20acoustic%20and%20auditory%20prominence.%20However%2C%20identifying%20acoustic%20and%20auditory%20prominence%20distinctions%20cross-linguistically%20is%20also%20not%20straightforward%20and%20requires%20considerable%20empirical%20effort.%20Nevertheless%2C%20cross-linguistic%20comparison%20is%20still%20possible%20in%20the%20case%20of%20%E2%80%98difficult%E2%80%99%20cluster%20concepts%20such%20as%20stress%20and%20does%20not%20require%20the%20use%20of%20arbitrary%20comparative%20concepts.&rft.identifier=https%3A%2F%2Fling.auf.net%2Flingbuzz%2F006684&rft.aufirst=Nikolaus&rft.aulast=Himmelmann&rft.au=Nikolaus%20Himmelmann&rft.date=2022-07"></span></div>
<div class="csl-bib-body" style="line-height: 1.35; margin-left:
2em; text-indent:-2em;">
<div class="csl-entry">van der Hulst, Harry. 2014. The study of
word accent and stress: Past, present, and future. In van der
Hulst, Harry (ed.), <i>Word stress</i>, 3–55. Cambridge:
Cambridge University Press.</div>
<span class="Z3988"
title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=urn%3Aisbn%3A978-1-139-91663-9&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=bookitem&rft.atitle=The%20study%20of%20word%20accent%20and%20stress%3A%20Past%2C%20present%2C%20and%20future&rft.place=Cambridge&rft.publisher=Cambridge%20University%20Press&rft.aufirst=Harry&rft.aulast=van%20der%20Hulst&rft.au=Harry%20van%20der%20Hulst&rft.au=Harry%20van%20der%20Hulst&rft.date=2014-06-05&rft.pages=3-55&rft.spage=3&rft.epage=55&rft.isbn=978-1-139-91663-9&rft.language=en"></span></div>
<br>
Himmelmann (2022), in particular, notes that well-designed
comparative concepts (such as "stress") must be defined in the same
way for all languages, and that a "stress" concept that is based on
English and German will not necessarily generalize to all languages:<br>
<div class="page" title="Page 9">
<div class="layoutArea">
<div class="column">
<p><font size="2"><span>"It should be clear that this
language-specific category needs to be taken apart and
individual component properties have to be carefully
assessed as to whether or not they may serve as a useful
basis for cross-linguistic comparison. Major problems
for cross-linguistic comparison arise when phenomena
from different dimensions are arbitrarily chosen and
included in a comparison set of examples for stress.
That is, for language X, phonotactic constraints are
counted as evidence for stressed syllables, while in
language Y it is the association with intonational pitch
accents. Such a procedure will not provide the basis for
a sound and productive comparison." (p. 9)</span></font><br>
<span style="font-size: 12.000000pt; font-family:
'TimesNewRomanPSMT'"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
Best,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 04.07.22 um 20:05 schrieb Michael
Fiddler:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAOrjZ3=6-i0ZqXWbpDaA10s2gM1iCqpLPBovw1t-wnQiHupGgA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hi Volker, <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The attached references review much of the previous
literature on the topic and describe the recurrent problems in
identifying measurable correlates of the purported rhythm
classes. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would also point out that the research on rhythm classes
has worked almost exclusively with languages of Eurasia. I
imagine the results would be even more chaotic if this
supposedly universal distinction had been evaluated using sets
of languages that were actually representative of the areal
and typological diversity that's out there.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers, <br>
</div>
<div>Michael<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 9:36 AM
Volker Gast <<a href="mailto:volker.gast@uni-jena.de"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">volker.gast@uni-jena.de</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Would you have any pointers to relevant literature?</p>
<p>Volker<br>
</p>
<div>On 04.07.22 18:34, Ian Maddieson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> A better question to ask is whether
this classification has any meaning. Numerous efforts to
look
<div>for measurable properties correlating with the
alleged categories have failed to find anything at</div>
<div>all reliable. Different studies result in quite
different groupings of the same languages.<br>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Jul 4, 2022, at 10:26, Volker Gast <<a
href="mailto:volker.gast@uni-jena.de"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">volker.gast@uni-jena.de</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<p>Dear all,<br>
A friend has asked me if there is any way of
determining <span>how many languages in the
world are stress/syllable/mora-timed.</span></p>
<p><span>Is there a database with this
information? Has anybody looked into this
question?<br>
</span></p>
<p><span>Best,<br>
Volker<br>
</span></p>
</div>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<div> <span
style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div>
<div>Ian Maddieson</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Department of Linguistics</div>
<div>University of New Mexico</div>
<div>MSC03-2130</div>
<div>Albuquerque NM 87131-0001</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Michael Fiddler</div>
<div>PhD student</div>
<div>Department of Linguistics</div>
<div>University of California, Santa Barbara<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="moz-mime-attachment-header"></fieldset>
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a></pre>
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