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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">Dear all,<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">Many thanks to Jess Tauber and John Peterson for the information on Yahgan and Konkani, respectively, as well as to Daniel Ross who privately informed me about the
seemingly cliticized postposition =<i>tʃʰɐ</i> 'on' in Gexi Horpa (Sino-Tibetan). Especially the Konkani enclitic superessive case marker =<i>r</i>/=<i>cer</i> seems to be a good and well-documented representative of what I was looking for.<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">Best regards,<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:FI" lang="FI">Jussi<o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<br>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>Frá:</b> John Peterson <jpeterson@isfas.uni-kiel.de><br>
<b>Sent:</b> föstudagur, 8. júlí 2022 15:00<br>
<b>Til:</b> Jussi Ylikoski <jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi><br>
<b>Afrit:</b> LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Efni:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] "Super", "superlocative" or 'top' cases outside the Caucasus and Uralic?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif">
<p>Dear Jussi,</p>
<p>Perhaps the Konkani (Southern Indo-Aryan) case system given in the table below would be of interest to you? Best, John</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p><strong>Case</strong></p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><strong>Singular</strong></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><strong>Plural</strong></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>Nominative (= direct stem)</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>–</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>–</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="3" width="566">
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The following enclitic case markers attach to the oblique stem:</p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>Objective (≈ Accusative / Dative)</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>=k</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=k</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>Ergative / Instrumental</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>=n</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=ni</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>Inesseive (‘in’)</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>=nt (=n)</em> (1)</p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=ni</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>Superessive (‘on’)</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>=r / =cer</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=r / =cer</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>"Familiessive" (‘at the home of’)</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>=ger</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=ger</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>Ablative</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>=san / =sun</em></p>
<p><em>=cyan / =lyan</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=san / =sun</em></p>
<p><em>=cyan / =lyan</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>Genitive (general)(2)</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>=c-ɔ / =c-i / =c-ɛ̃</em></p>
<p><em>=l-ɔ / =l-i / =l-ɛ̃</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=c-ɔ / =c-i / =c-ɛ̃</em></p>
<p><em>=l-ɔ / =l-i / =l-ɛ̃</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>“Kinship genitive” (‘belonging to the household of’)</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>=gɛl-ɔ / =gel-i / =gɛl-ɛ̃</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=gɛl-ɔ / =gel-i / =gɛl-ɛ̃</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>Vocative</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>–</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=no</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p>Notes:<br>
(1) While the standard form of the inessive singular is <em>=nt</em>, it is often realized as /n/<em>
</em>in both speech and writing, resulting in the total syncretism of the ergative/instrumental and the inessive cases in both singular and plural.<br>
(2) According to the traditional analysis, the genitive forms with <c> (realized as /ʧ/ before high front vowels and as /ʦ/ elsewhere) can be used with all types of nouns, whereas the /l/-forms are only used with nouns denoting personal names of human possessors,
although there are also exceptions. This requires further study.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p id="x_reply-intro">Am 08.07.2022 01:08, schrieb Jussi Ylikoski:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0 0.4em; border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin:0">
<div id="x_replybody1">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="x_v1elementToProof" style="font-family:Tahoma,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size:10pt; color:#000000">
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">Dear all, </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">More than a year ago, in the midst of another discussion, I asked about something that was never explicitly confirmed or refuted, and I would now like to repeat my question (archived at
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif"><a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/2021-March/008683.html" data-auth="NotApplicable" id="x_v1LPlnk450122">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/2021-March/008683.html</a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">): </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">– – </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">While many "Super", "superlocative" or 'top' cases can indeed be found in Uralic and in the languages of Caucasus (Ossetic
(Indo-European) included), are there any other corners of the world with such specialized cases? In other words, I'm looking for morphological case distinctions as seen in the following Finnish word pairs: </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">lipasto-ssa 'in the drawer' vs. lipasto-lla 'on the drawer' </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">tule-ssa 'in the fire' vs. tule-lla 'on the fire' </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">mere-ssä 'in the sea' vs. mere-llä 'on the sea' </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">I'd be happy to locate similar morphological distinctions outside the Uralic family and the Causasus region.<br>
</span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">(Edit: Frankly, at the time of correcting the proofs of a paper, I'd be happy not to locate such cases elsewhere, but the truth must win out.)<br>
</span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">Best regards, </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">Jussi </span></p>
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<div class="x_pre" style="margin:0; padding:0; font-family:monospace">_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote>
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<div id="x_signature">-- <br>
<div class="x_pre" style="margin:0; padding:0; font-family:monospace">John Peterson<br>
Linguistik und Phonetik (ISFAS)<br>
Christian-Albrechts-Universität zu Kiel<br>
Olshausenstraße 40<br>
D-24098 Kiel<br>
Germany<br>
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Tel.: (+49) (0)431-880 2414<br>
Fax: (+49) (0)431-880 7405<br>
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<a href="http://www.isfas.uni-kiel.de/de/linguistik/mitarbeitende/john-peterson" data-auth="NotApplicable">http://www.isfas.uni-kiel.de/de/linguistik/mitarbeitende/john-peterson</a><br>
<br>
"Nós temos duas vidas e a segunda começa quando você percebe que você só tem uma…" (Mário de Andrade)<br>
"We have two lives and the second begins when you realize that you only have one..."</div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>Frá:</b> John Peterson <jpeterson@isfas.uni-kiel.de><br>
<b>Sent:</b> föstudagur, 8. júlí 2022 15:00<br>
<b>Til:</b> Jussi Ylikoski <jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi><br>
<b>Afrit:</b> LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Efni:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] "Super", "superlocative" or 'top' cases outside the Caucasus and Uralic?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div style="font-size:12pt; font-family:"Times New Roman",Times,serif">
<p>Dear Jussi,</p>
<p>Perhaps the Konkani (Southern Indo-Aryan) case system given in the table below would be of interest to you? Best, John</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p><strong>Case</strong></p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><strong>Singular</strong></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><strong>Plural</strong></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>Nominative (= direct stem)</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>–</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>–</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td colspan="3" width="566">
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The following enclitic case markers attach to the oblique stem:</p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>Objective (≈ Accusative / Dative)</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>=k</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=k</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>Ergative / Instrumental</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>=n</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=ni</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>Inesseive (‘in’)</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>=nt (=n)</em> (1)</p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=ni</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>Superessive (‘on’)</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>=r / =cer</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=r / =cer</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>"Familiessive" (‘at the home of’)</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>=ger</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=ger</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>Ablative</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>=san / =sun</em></p>
<p><em>=cyan / =lyan</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=san / =sun</em></p>
<p><em>=cyan / =lyan</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>Genitive (general)(2)</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>=c-ɔ / =c-i / =c-ɛ̃</em></p>
<p><em>=l-ɔ / =l-i / =l-ɛ̃</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=c-ɔ / =c-i / =c-ɛ̃</em></p>
<p><em>=l-ɔ / =l-i / =l-ɛ̃</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>“Kinship genitive” (‘belonging to the household of’)</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>=gɛl-ɔ / =gel-i / =gɛl-ɛ̃</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=gɛl-ɔ / =gel-i / =gɛl-ɛ̃</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="233">
<p>Vocative</p>
</td>
<td width="164">
<p><em>–</em></p>
</td>
<td width="169">
<p><em>=no</em></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p>Notes:<br>
(1) While the standard form of the inessive singular is <em>=nt</em>, it is often realized as /n/<em>
</em>in both speech and writing, resulting in the total syncretism of the ergative/instrumental and the inessive cases in both singular and plural.<br>
(2) According to the traditional analysis, the genitive forms with <c> (realized as /ʧ/ before high front vowels and as /ʦ/ elsewhere) can be used with all types of nouns, whereas the /l/-forms are only used with nouns denoting personal names of human possessors,
although there are also exceptions. This requires further study.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p id="x_reply-intro">Am 08.07.2022 01:08, schrieb Jussi Ylikoski:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0 0.4em; border-left:#1010ff 2px solid; margin:0">
<div id="x_replybody1">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="x_v1elementToProof" style="font-family:Tahoma,Geneva,sans-serif; font-size:10pt; color:#000000">
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">Dear all, </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">More than a year ago, in the midst of another discussion, I asked about something that was never explicitly confirmed or refuted, and I would now like to repeat my question (archived at
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif"><a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/2021-March/008683.html" data-auth="NotApplicable" id="x_v1LPlnk450122">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/2021-March/008683.html</a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">): </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">– – </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">While many "Super", "superlocative" or 'top' cases can indeed be found in Uralic and in the languages of Caucasus (Ossetic
(Indo-European) included), are there any other corners of the world with such specialized cases? In other words, I'm looking for morphological case distinctions as seen in the following Finnish word pairs: </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">lipasto-ssa 'in the drawer' vs. lipasto-lla 'on the drawer' </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">tule-ssa 'in the fire' vs. tule-lla 'on the fire' </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">mere-ssä 'in the sea' vs. mere-llä 'on the sea' </span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">I'd be happy to locate similar morphological distinctions outside the Uralic family and the Causasus region.<br>
</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="x_v1MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin:0cm; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">(Edit: Frankly, at the time of correcting the proofs of a paper, I'd be happy not to locate such cases elsewhere, but the truth must win out.)<br>
</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif"> </span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">Best regards, </span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif"> </span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:'Tahoma',sans-serif">Jussi </span></p>
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<div class="x_pre" style="margin:0; padding:0; font-family:monospace">John Peterson<br>
Linguistik und Phonetik (ISFAS)<br>
Christian-Albrechts-Universität zu Kiel<br>
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"Nós temos duas vidas e a segunda começa quando você percebe que você só tem uma…" (Mário de Andrade)<br>
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