<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><font face="times new roman, serif">Hi, Jussi,</font></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:large"><font face="times new roman, serif"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif"><span style="font-size:large">This system of very specific case/postpositional markers, including 'super', 'superlocative' cases as you call them is also attested in Tupi-Guarani language (Tupian language family; South America). There is, for instance, a contrast between <i>-pe</i> 'loc</span><font size="4" style="">ative', <i style="">-</i><i style="">ßo </i>'diffuse locative (spread over an area)', <i style="">-i</i> 'punctual locative (not spread, at a precise point over a surface)', though the latter is usually restricted, as a productive morpheme, to the most conservative languages in the family only. Some languages like many Guaranian lects also add <i>-re</i>, used as a 'contact locative' as in the contrast:</font></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif"><font size="4" style=""><i><br></i></font></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif"><font size="4" style=""><i>a-ju apy nde-yvy-<b>pe</b></i></font></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif"><font size="4" style="">1SG.A-come here 2SG.POSS-land-LOC</font></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif"><font size="4" style="">"I came here to your land" (and got inside it, as the locative <i>-pe</i> is used)</font></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif" size="4"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif" size="4">vs.</font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif" size="4"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif" size="4"><i>a-ju apy nde-yvy-<b>re</b></i></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif" size="4">1SG-come here 2SG-land-LOC</font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif" size="4">"I came here to your land" (but didn't get inside it, as shown by the "border" locative <i>-re</i>)</font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif" size="4"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif" size="4">Finally, there are many 'transitional' systems out there where "relational" or "locator" nouns are used in adposition, usually with default locative markers, to express these additional shades of locational meaning - and these are, I suppose, often the grammaticalization precursors for these case markers. I've found many such cases in Arawakan languages (South America), and Tupi-Guarani languages offer many examples too (as in <i>-kupe-pe</i> 'at the rear part of an object', transparently related to the noun <i>-kupe</i> 'backs').</font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif" size="4"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif" size="4"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif" size="4">I hope you find this relevant.</font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif" size="4"><br></font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><font face="times new roman, serif" size="4">Best regards,</font></div><div class="gmail_default" style=""><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 9:00 AM <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Lingtyp mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: "Super", "superlocative" or 'top' cases outside the<br>
Caucasus and Uralic? (Jussi Ylikoski)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 18:13:21 +0000<br>
From: Jussi Ylikoski <<a href="mailto:jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi" target="_blank">jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi</a>><br>
To: "<a href="mailto:jpeterson@isfas.uni-kiel.de" target="_blank">jpeterson@isfas.uni-kiel.de</a>" <<a href="mailto:jpeterson@isfas.uni-kiel.de" target="_blank">jpeterson@isfas.uni-kiel.de</a>>, Jess<br>
Tauber <<a href="mailto:tetrahedralpt@gmail.com" target="_blank">tetrahedralpt@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: "<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] "Super", "superlocative" or 'top' cases outside<br>
the Caucasus and Uralic?<br>
Message-ID:<br>
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<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
<br>
Many thanks to Jess Tauber and John Peterson for the information on Yahgan and Konkani, respectively, as well as to Daniel Ross who privately informed me about the seemingly cliticized postposition =t??? 'on' in Gexi Horpa (Sino-Tibetan). Especially the Konkani enclitic superessive case marker =r/=cer seems to be a good and well-documented representative of what I was looking for.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Jussi<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
Fr?: John Peterson <<a href="mailto:jpeterson@isfas.uni-kiel.de" target="_blank">jpeterson@isfas.uni-kiel.de</a>><br>
Sent: f?studagur, 8. j?l? 2022 15:00<br>
Til: Jussi Ylikoski <<a href="mailto:jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi" target="_blank">jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi</a>><br>
Afrit: <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Efni: Re: [Lingtyp] "Super", "superlocative" or 'top' cases outside the Caucasus and Uralic?<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear Jussi,<br>
<br>
Perhaps the Konkani (Southern Indo-Aryan) case system given in the table below would be of interest to you? Best, John<br>
<br>
<br>
Case<br>
<br>
Singular<br>
<br>
Plural<br>
<br>
Nominative (= direct stem)<br>
<br>
?<br>
<br>
?<br>
<br>
<br>
The following enclitic case markers attach to the oblique stem:<br>
<br>
Objective (? Accusative / Dative)<br>
<br>
=k<br>
<br>
=k<br>
<br>
Ergative / Instrumental<br>
<br>
=n<br>
<br>
=ni<br>
<br>
Inesseive (?in?)<br>
<br>
=nt (=n) (1)<br>
<br>
=ni<br>
<br>
Superessive (?on?)<br>
<br>
=r / =cer<br>
<br>
=r / =cer<br>
<br>
"Familiessive" (?at the home of?)<br>
<br>
=ger<br>
<br>
=ger<br>
<br>
Ablative<br>
<br>
=san / =sun<br>
<br>
=cyan / =lyan<br>
<br>
=san / =sun<br>
<br>
=cyan / =lyan<br>
<br>
Genitive (general)(2)<br>
<br>
=c-? / =c-i / =c-??<br>
<br>
=l-? / =l-i / =l-??<br>
<br>
=c-? / =c-i / =c-??<br>
<br>
=l-? / =l-i / =l-??<br>
<br>
?Kinship genitive? (?belonging to the household of?)<br>
<br>
=g?l-? / =gel-i / =g?l-??<br>
<br>
=g?l-? / =gel-i / =g?l-??<br>
<br>
Vocative<br>
<br>
?<br>
<br>
=no<br>
<br>
Notes:<br>
(1) While the standard form of the inessive singular is =nt, it is often realized as /n/ in both speech and writing, resulting in the total syncretism of the ergative/instrumental and the inessive cases in both singular and plural.<br>
(2) According to the traditional analysis, the genitive forms with <c> (realized as /?/ before high front vowels and as /?/ elsewhere) can be used with all types of nouns, whereas the /l/-forms are only used with nouns denoting personal names of human possessors, although there are also exceptions. This requires further study.<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 08.07.2022 01:08, schrieb Jussi Ylikoski:<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
More than a year ago, in the midst of another discussion, I asked about something that was never explicitly confirmed or refuted, and I would now like to repeat my question (archived at <a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/2021-March/008683.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/2021-March/008683.html</a>):<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
? ? While many "Super", "superlocative" or 'top' cases can indeed be found in Uralic and in the languages of Caucasus (Ossetic (Indo-European) included), are there any other corners of the world with such specialized cases? In other words, I'm looking for morphological case distinctions as seen in the following Finnish word pairs:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
lipasto-ssa 'in the drawer' vs. lipasto-lla 'on the drawer'<br>
<br>
tule-ssa 'in the fire' vs. tule-lla 'on the fire'<br>
<br>
mere-ss? 'in the sea' vs. mere-ll? 'on the sea'<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I'd be happy to locate similar morphological distinctions outside the Uralic family and the Causasus region.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
(Edit: Frankly, at the time of correcting the proofs of a paper, I'd be happy not to locate such cases elsewhere, but the truth must win out.)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jussi<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
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<br>
--<br>
John Peterson<br>
Linguistik und Phonetik (ISFAS)<br>
Christian-Albrechts-Universit?t zu Kiel<br>
Olshausenstra?e 40<br>
D-24098 Kiel<br>
Germany<br>
<br>
<br>
Tel.: (+49) (0)431-880 2414<br>
Fax: (+49) (0)431-880 7405<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.isfas.uni-kiel.de/de/linguistik/mitarbeitende/john-peterson" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.isfas.uni-kiel.de/de/linguistik/mitarbeitende/john-peterson</a><br>
<br>
"N?s temos duas vidas e a segunda come?a quando voc? percebe que voc? s? tem uma?" (M?rio de Andrade)<br>
"We have two lives and the second begins when you realize that you only have one..."<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
Fr?: John Peterson <<a href="mailto:jpeterson@isfas.uni-kiel.de" target="_blank">jpeterson@isfas.uni-kiel.de</a>><br>
Sent: f?studagur, 8. j?l? 2022 15:00<br>
Til: Jussi Ylikoski <<a href="mailto:jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi" target="_blank">jussi.ylikoski@oulu.fi</a>><br>
Afrit: <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Efni: Re: [Lingtyp] "Super", "superlocative" or 'top' cases outside the Caucasus and Uralic?<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear Jussi,<br>
<br>
Perhaps the Konkani (Southern Indo-Aryan) case system given in the table below would be of interest to you? Best, John<br>
<br>
<br>
Case<br>
<br>
Singular<br>
<br>
Plural<br>
<br>
Nominative (= direct stem)<br>
<br>
?<br>
<br>
?<br>
<br>
<br>
The following enclitic case markers attach to the oblique stem:<br>
<br>
Objective (? Accusative / Dative)<br>
<br>
=k<br>
<br>
=k<br>
<br>
Ergative / Instrumental<br>
<br>
=n<br>
<br>
=ni<br>
<br>
Inesseive (?in?)<br>
<br>
=nt (=n) (1)<br>
<br>
=ni<br>
<br>
Superessive (?on?)<br>
<br>
=r / =cer<br>
<br>
=r / =cer<br>
<br>
"Familiessive" (?at the home of?)<br>
<br>
=ger<br>
<br>
=ger<br>
<br>
Ablative<br>
<br>
=san / =sun<br>
<br>
=cyan / =lyan<br>
<br>
=san / =sun<br>
<br>
=cyan / =lyan<br>
<br>
Genitive (general)(2)<br>
<br>
=c-? / =c-i / =c-??<br>
<br>
=l-? / =l-i / =l-??<br>
<br>
=c-? / =c-i / =c-??<br>
<br>
=l-? / =l-i / =l-??<br>
<br>
?Kinship genitive? (?belonging to the household of?)<br>
<br>
=g?l-? / =gel-i / =g?l-??<br>
<br>
=g?l-? / =gel-i / =g?l-??<br>
<br>
Vocative<br>
<br>
?<br>
<br>
=no<br>
<br>
Notes:<br>
(1) While the standard form of the inessive singular is =nt, it is often realized as /n/ in both speech and writing, resulting in the total syncretism of the ergative/instrumental and the inessive cases in both singular and plural.<br>
(2) According to the traditional analysis, the genitive forms with <c> (realized as /?/ before high front vowels and as /?/ elsewhere) can be used with all types of nouns, whereas the /l/-forms are only used with nouns denoting personal names of human possessors, although there are also exceptions. This requires further study.<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 08.07.2022 01:08, schrieb Jussi Ylikoski:<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
More than a year ago, in the midst of another discussion, I asked about something that was never explicitly confirmed or refuted, and I would now like to repeat my question (archived at <a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/2021-March/008683.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/2021-March/008683.html</a>):<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
? ? While many "Super", "superlocative" or 'top' cases can indeed be found in Uralic and in the languages of Caucasus (Ossetic (Indo-European) included), are there any other corners of the world with such specialized cases? In other words, I'm looking for morphological case distinctions as seen in the following Finnish word pairs:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
lipasto-ssa 'in the drawer' vs. lipasto-lla 'on the drawer'<br>
<br>
tule-ssa 'in the fire' vs. tule-lla 'on the fire'<br>
<br>
mere-ss? 'in the sea' vs. mere-ll? 'on the sea'<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I'd be happy to locate similar morphological distinctions outside the Uralic family and the Causasus region.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
(Edit: Frankly, at the time of correcting the proofs of a paper, I'd be happy not to locate such cases elsewhere, but the truth must win out.)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jussi<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
<br>
--<br>
John Peterson<br>
Linguistik und Phonetik (ISFAS)<br>
Christian-Albrechts-Universit?t zu Kiel<br>
Olshausenstra?e 40<br>
D-24098 Kiel<br>
Germany<br>
<br>
<br>
Tel.: (+49) (0)431-880 2414<br>
Fax: (+49) (0)431-880 7405<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.isfas.uni-kiel.de/de/linguistik/mitarbeitende/john-peterson" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.isfas.uni-kiel.de/de/linguistik/mitarbeitende/john-peterson</a><br>
<br>
"N?s temos duas vidas e a segunda come?a quando voc? percebe que voc? s? tem uma?" (M?rio de Andrade)<br>
"We have two lives and the second begins when you realize that you only have one..."<br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><font face="georgia, serif">Fernando O. de Carvalho<br></font></div><font face="georgia, serif">Setor de Linguística</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">Departamento de Antropologia (DA)</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">Museu Nacional - Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro (MN/UFRJ)</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">.<br></font></div><div><a href="https://museunacional-ufrj.academia.edu/FernandoOdeCarvalho" target="_blank">https://museunacional-ufrj.academia.edu/FernandoOdeCarvalho</a><br></div><span style="font-family:monospace,monospace"></span></div><span style="font-family:monospace,monospace"></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>