<html><head></head><body><div class="ydpbc2eabaeyahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">French speakers very systematically use<i> t'inquiète!</i> (REC-worry) 'do worry' to actually mean <i><b>ne</b> t'inquiète <b>pas</b></i> (NEG REC-worry-NEG) 'don't worry'. Here the entire negation is ellipsed, and I see it as a confirmation of it being a very pragmatic phenomenon where very predictable elements can be left unspoken without leading to confusion.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Best,</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Marine<br></div><div><br></div><div class="ydpbc2eabaesignature"><div style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><font size="1" face="HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif"><a href="https://www.comparativelinguistics.uzh.ch/en/staff/vuillermet.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Marine Vuillermet</a></font><div id="ydp7e7a8001yui_3_16_0_1_1411635518217_22870" dir="ltr" class="ydp7e7a8001yiv6569657844"><font size="1" face="HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif"><span><font id="ydp7e7a8001yui_3_16_0_1_1411635518217_22876" style="background-color: inherit;" size="1" face="HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif"><span><span><font id="ydp7e7a8001yui_3_16_0_1_1411635518217_22876" style="background-color: inherit;" size="1" face="HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif">Postdoctoral fellow</font></span></span><i><span> </span></i></font></span><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" class="ydp7e7a8001yiv6569657844"><font size="1" face="HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif">-----<br class="ydp7e7a8001yiv6569657844" clear="none"></font></div><div id="ydp7e7a8001yui_3_16_0_1_1411635518217_22874" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13px;background-color:transparent;" dir="ltr" class="ydp7e7a8001yiv6569657844"><div dir="ltr" style="font-style:normal;"><font id="ydp7e7a8001yui_3_16_0_1_1411635518217_22876" size="1" face="HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif"><div><font id="ydp7e7a8001yui_3_16_0_1_1411635518217_22876" size="1" face="HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif"><font id="ydp7e7a8001yui_3_16_0_1_1411635518217_22883" size="1" face="HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif">University of Zürich</font></font><font id="ydp7e7a8001yui_3_16_0_1_1411635518217_22883" size="1" face="HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif"><br></font><font id="ydp7e7a8001yui_3_16_0_1_1411635518217_22883" size="1" face="HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif"> <a href="https://www.comparativelinguistics.uzh.ch/en/ma.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Department of Comparative Linguistics</a></font></div></font></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-style:normal;"><font id="ydp7e7a8001yui_3_16_0_1_1411635518217_22876" size="1" face="HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif"><i><span><a href="https://www.outofasia.uzh.ch/en.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out Of Asia</a>: Linguistic Diversity and Population History</span></i><br></font></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-style:normal;"><font size="1" face="HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif"><i><span><br></span></i></font></div><div dir="ltr"><font size="1" face="HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif">"<span style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;">Humans and flies diverged from a common ancestor about 600 million years ago." (Baum & Smith 2013:5)<br></span></font></div><div style="font-style:normal;"><font id="ydp7e7a8001yui_3_16_0_1_1411635518217_22876" size="1" face="HelveticaNeue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif"><br></font></div></div></div></div></div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div>
</div><div id="ydpfb865540yahoo_quoted_8013940356" class="ydpfb865540yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
<div>
Le jeudi 3 novembre 2022 à 13:01:56 UTC+1, lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org> a écrit :
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><div dir="ltr">Send Lingtyp mailing list submissions to<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">You can reach the person managing the list at<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a href="mailto:lingtyp-owner@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp-owner@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br></div><div dir="ltr">than "Re: Contents of Lingtyp digest..."<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Today's Topics:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"> 1. Re: query: 1st syllable deletion (Christian Lehmann)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 2. Re: query: 1st syllable deletion (David Gil)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 3. Re: query: 1st syllable deletion (Randy J. LaPolla)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 4. Re: query: 1st syllable deletion (David Gil)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 5. Re: query: 1st syllable deletion (Marianne Mithun)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 6. Re: query: 1st syllable deletion (Riccardo Giomi)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 7. Re: query: 1st syllable deletion (Daniel Ross)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">----------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 1<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2022 13:06:08 +0100<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: 1st syllable deletion<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:fb9ff7eb-68fc-b271-1c92-32e80e14e33f@Uni-Erfurt.De" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">fb9ff7eb-68fc-b271-1c92-32e80e14e33f@Uni-Erfurt.De</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Am 02.11.22 um 11:33 schrieb Randy LaPolla:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Good question, David!<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Not a matter of phonetics or morphology, though.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Possibly a simple pragmatic phenomenon where predictable elements, <br></div><div dir="ltr">> especially topics, can be left unspoken.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Common in many languages.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Not considered ?grammatical? in English, but maybe English is changing.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Randy<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">Judging from German, Randy seems to be on the right track here. See:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Lehmann, Christian 1991, ?Grammaticalization and related changes in <br></div><div dir="ltr">contemporary German?. Traugott, Elizabeth C. & Heine, Bernd (eds.), <br></div><div dir="ltr">/Approaches to grammaticalization/. Vol. II: Focus on types of <br></div><div dir="ltr">grammatical markers. Amsterdam & Philadelphia: J. Benjamins (Typological <br></div><div dir="ltr">Studies in Language, 19:2); 2:493-535. [ download <br></div><div dir="ltr"><<a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/246338410_Grammaticalization_and_related_changes_in_contemporary_German" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/246338410_Grammaticalization_and_related_changes_in_contemporary_German</a>> <br></div><div dir="ltr">]; section 5.2.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">Christian<br></div><div dir="ltr">-- <br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br></div><div dir="ltr">Rudolfstr. 4<br></div><div dir="ltr">99092 Erfurt<br></div><div dir="ltr">Deutschland<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Tel.: +49/361/2113417<br></div><div dir="ltr">E-Post: <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">Web: <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20221102/f2927f9c/attachment-0001.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20221102/f2927f9c/attachment-0001.htm</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 2<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 13:29:50 +0200<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: Randy LaPolla <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Cc: <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: 1st syllable deletion<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:dc6abfdc-5feb-7acd-e9d0-044ed0a45809@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">dc6abfdc-5feb-7acd-e9d0-044ed0a45809@shh.mpg.de</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Randy,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Thanks for your comment.? The last couple of days I've received a flurry <br></div><div dir="ltr">of very helpful references and pointers concerning the phenomenon in <br></div><div dir="ltr">question, which seem to point to it not being "a simple pragmatic <br></div><div dir="ltr">phenomenon" of the kind you suggest.? Also, with the possible exception <br></div><div dir="ltr">of a reference to German, nobody so far has offered examples of similar <br></div><div dir="ltr">processes in other languages, and indeed, I can't think of anything like <br></div><div dir="ltr">it in the other languages I am familiar with.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">David<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On 02/11/2022 12:33, Randy LaPolla wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Good question, David!<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Not a matter of phonetics or morphology, though.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Possibly a simple pragmatic phenomenon where predictable elements, <br></div><div dir="ltr">> especially topics, can be left unspoken.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Common in many languages.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Not considered ?grammatical? in English, but maybe English is changing.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Randy<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">-- <br></div><div dir="ltr">David Gil<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Senior Scientist (Associate)<br></div><div dir="ltr">Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br></div><div dir="ltr">Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br></div><div dir="ltr">Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br></div><div dir="ltr">Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 3<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 20:35:36 +0800<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: "Randy J. LaPolla" <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Cc: <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: 1st syllable deletion<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:CE016982-3138-4F01-8D72-BE23BD24D804@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">CE016982-3138-4F01-8D72-BE23BD24D804@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Hi David,<br></div><div dir="ltr">I don?t like the term ?prodrop?, as it takes English, which is typologically actually the odd man out, as the norm, and all of the many languages that have not grammaticalised the grammatical mood constructions that require pronouns to be retained in English are seen as aberrant, but for languages that do not have such constructions, e.g. Chinese, the kind of pattern we have been talking about is the norm.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">All the best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">Randy<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">> On 2 Nov 2022, at 7:29 PM, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <br></div><div dir="ltr">> Randy,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <br></div><div dir="ltr">> Thanks for your comment. The last couple of days I've received a flurry of very helpful references and pointers concerning the phenomenon in question, which seem to point to it not being "a simple pragmatic phenomenon" of the kind you suggest. Also, with the possible exception of a reference to German, nobody so far has offered examples of similar processes in other languages, and indeed, I can't think of anything like it in the other languages I am familiar with.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <br></div><div dir="ltr">> Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <br></div><div dir="ltr">> David<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <br></div><div dir="ltr">> <br></div><div dir="ltr">> On 02/11/2022 12:33, Randy LaPolla wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Good question, David!<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Not a matter of phonetics or morphology, though.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Possibly a simple pragmatic phenomenon where predictable elements, especially topics, can be left unspoken.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Common in many languages.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Not considered ?grammatical? in English, but maybe English is changing.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Randy<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> <br></div><div dir="ltr">> -- <br></div><div dir="ltr">> David Gil<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <br></div><div dir="ltr">> Senior Scientist (Associate)<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <br></div><div dir="ltr">> Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 4<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 17:03:21 +0200<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: "Randy J. LaPolla" <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Cc: <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: 1st syllable deletion<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:3f157863-42bc-a66d-4dad-9ad7bd7081b0@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">3f157863-42bc-a66d-4dad-9ad7bd7081b0@shh.mpg.de</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Hi Randy,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I share your dislike of the term "prodrop" and for probably the same <br></div><div dir="ltr">reasons.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">But I will dig my heels in and insist that the kind of phenomenon that <br></div><div dir="ltr">I'm asking about bears little resemblance to the much more pervasive and <br></div><div dir="ltr">across the board East and Southeast Asian practice of optional <br></div><div dir="ltr">expression of various categories that might be obligatory in some <br></div><div dir="ltr">Standard Average European languages.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Since writing (below) to the effect that I have not seen anything <br></div><div dir="ltr">similar to this outside of English and possibly German, the discussion <br></div><div dir="ltr">has produced some possibly similar constructions in Italian (from <br></div><div dir="ltr">Riccardo) and Finnish (an offline response) - but nothing so far further <br></div><div dir="ltr">afield.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">David<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On 02/11/2022 14:35, Randy J. LaPolla wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Hi David,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> I don?t like the term ?prodrop?, as it takes English, which is typologically actually the odd man out, as the norm, and all of the many languages that have not grammaticalised the grammatical mood constructions that require pronouns to be retained in English are seen as aberrant, but for languages that do not have such constructions, e.g. Chinese, the kind of pattern we have been talking about is the norm.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> All the best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Randy<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> On 2 Nov 2022, at 7:29 PM, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Randy,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Thanks for your comment. The last couple of days I've received a flurry of very helpful references and pointers concerning the phenomenon in question, which seem to point to it not being "a simple pragmatic phenomenon" of the kind you suggest. Also, with the possible exception of a reference to German, nobody so far has offered examples of similar processes in other languages, and indeed, I can't think of anything like it in the other languages I am familiar with.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> David<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> On 02/11/2022 12:33, Randy LaPolla wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> Good question, David!<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> Not a matter of phonetics or morphology, though.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> Possibly a simple pragmatic phenomenon where predictable elements, especially topics, can be left unspoken.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> Common in many languages.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> Not considered ?grammatical? in English, but maybe English is changing.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>>> Randy<br></div><div dir="ltr">>>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> -- <br></div><div dir="ltr">>> David Gil<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Senior Scientist (Associate)<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">-- <br></div><div dir="ltr">David Gil<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Senior Scientist (Associate)<br></div><div dir="ltr">Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br></div><div dir="ltr">Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br></div><div dir="ltr">Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br></div><div dir="ltr">Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 5<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 08:31:48 -0700<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Marianne Mithun <<a href="mailto:mithun@linguistics.ucsb.edu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mithun@linguistics.ucsb.edu</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: "Randy J. LaPolla" <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Cc: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>, <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: 1st syllable deletion<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID:<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <CAKvd2fD=WtVBYEG1ufHf5-zM8X7sxv+<a href="mailto:SD8qfOO4EinYJSuCCmw@mail.gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">SD8qfOO4EinYJSuCCmw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Bravo, Randy!<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Marianne<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 5:35 AM Randy J. LaPolla <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Hi David,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> I don?t like the term ?prodrop?, as it takes English, which is<br></div><div dir="ltr">> typologically actually the odd man out, as the norm, and all of the many<br></div><div dir="ltr">> languages that have not grammaticalised the grammatical mood constructions<br></div><div dir="ltr">> that require pronouns to be retained in English are seen as aberrant, but<br></div><div dir="ltr">> for languages that do not have such constructions, e.g. Chinese, the kind<br></div><div dir="ltr">> of pattern we have been talking about is the norm.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> All the best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Randy<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > On 2 Nov 2022, at 7:29 PM, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Randy,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Thanks for your comment. The last couple of days I've received a flurry<br></div><div dir="ltr">> of very helpful references and pointers concerning the phenomenon in<br></div><div dir="ltr">> question, which seem to point to it not being "a simple pragmatic<br></div><div dir="ltr">> phenomenon" of the kind you suggest. Also, with the possible exception of<br></div><div dir="ltr">> a reference to German, nobody so far has offered examples of similar<br></div><div dir="ltr">> processes in other languages, and indeed, I can't think of anything like it<br></div><div dir="ltr">> in the other languages I am familiar with.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > David<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > On 02/11/2022 12:33, Randy LaPolla wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> >> Good question, David!<br></div><div dir="ltr">> >> Not a matter of phonetics or morphology, though.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> >> Possibly a simple pragmatic phenomenon where predictable elements,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> especially topics, can be left unspoken.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> >> Common in many languages.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> >> Not considered ?grammatical? in English, but maybe English is changing.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> >><br></div><div dir="ltr">> >> Randy<br></div><div dir="ltr">> >><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > --<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > David Gil<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Senior Scientist (Associate)<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> _______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Lingtyp mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20221102/33d00445/attachment-0001.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20221102/33d00445/attachment-0001.htm</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 6<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 14:35:46 +0100<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Riccardo Giomi <<a href="mailto:rgiomi@campus.ul.pt" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">rgiomi@campus.ul.pt</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: "Randy J. LaPolla" <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Cc: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>, <a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: 1st syllable deletion<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID:<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <CA+<a href="mailto:KJqQErJFfghBRf927r_FYHBcxGb6FnncOYHtSoHd8LGHLWpA@mail.gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">KJqQErJFfghBRf927r_FYHBcxGb6FnncOYHtSoHd8LGHLWpA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"> Dear David and all,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">For what it's worth, I tend to agree with Randy and Christian. One possible<br></div><div dir="ltr">argument against a rule-based deletion/ellipsis account comes from central<br></div><div dir="ltr">varieties of Italian (including my own), and concerns, once again, emphatic<br></div><div dir="ltr">*wh-*questions -- suggesting a cross-linguistic pattern that, I suspect,<br></div><div dir="ltr">may also be found in other languages.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">The "full" version of the type of question I have in mind makes use of the<br></div><div dir="ltr">emphatic element *cazzo *(slang for 'penis', but functionally largely<br></div><div dir="ltr">equivalent to English *fuck*), postponed to the clause-initial *wh-*word,<br></div><div dir="ltr">e.g.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">- *Che cazzo fai? *'What the fuck are you doing?'<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I often hear (and probably produce myself) "reduced" versions of similar<br></div><div dir="ltr">questions, including the following:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">- *Cazzo fai?*<br></div><div dir="ltr">-* Azzo fai?*<br></div><div dir="ltr">*- Zzo fai?*<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">In the first case, it is only the first word and syllable *che *that would<br></div><div dir="ltr">be deleted; in the second, it's this word/syllable plus the onset of the<br></div><div dir="ltr">second syllable (which belongs to the second syntactic word); in the third<br></div><div dir="ltr">the first word/syllable plus the whole second syllable (i.e. the first<br></div><div dir="ltr">syllable of the second syntactic word). And I also recognize the forms *Zzo<br></div><div dir="ltr">vai? *and *Azzo vai? *for *Dove cazzo vai? *('Where the fuck are you<br></div><div dir="ltr">going?'), where the (by hypothesis) elided part consists of two and a half<br></div><div dir="ltr">and three syllables, respectively, again cutting across syntactic domains.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">What this all suggests to me is that, if the correct explanation was indeed<br></div><div dir="ltr">one in term of deletion or ellipsis, then either it is a composite rule<br></div><div dir="ltr">that cuts across phonology and syntax, or it would be a merely phonological<br></div><div dir="ltr">rule allowing deletion of phonological strings that do not necessarily<br></div><div dir="ltr">coincide with syllables (which sounds kind of weird, at least for Italian),<br></div><div dir="ltr">and may stretch over three entire syllables (and maybe more, but this is<br></div><div dir="ltr">what I could think of for the moment). Rather than postulating such a<br></div><div dir="ltr">complex rule, which for more I don't think is found in any other type of<br></div><div dir="ltr">utterance in Italian, I find it much more economical and<br></div><div dir="ltr">psycholinguistically plausible (but the latter is of course quite a shot in<br></div><div dir="ltr">the dark) to assume that the point is precisely the omission of the<br></div><div dir="ltr">predictable elements from this specific type of emphatic question. The<br></div><div dir="ltr">constraint appears to be that only the most distinctive (and perceptually<br></div><div dir="ltr">salient) element, i.e. the second syllable of *cazzo*, must be retained for<br></div><div dir="ltr">the utterance-type in question to be easily identified.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Sorry for my stream of consciousness!<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">Riccardo<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Randy J. LaPolla <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>> escreveu no dia quarta,<br></div><div dir="ltr">2/11/2022 ?(s) 13:35:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Hi David,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> I don?t like the term ?prodrop?, as it takes English, which is<br></div><div dir="ltr">> typologically actually the odd man out, as the norm, and all of the many<br></div><div dir="ltr">> languages that have not grammaticalised the grammatical mood constructions<br></div><div dir="ltr">> that require pronouns to be retained in English are seen as aberrant, but<br></div><div dir="ltr">> for languages that do not have such constructions, e.g. Chinese, the kind<br></div><div dir="ltr">> of pattern we have been talking about is the norm.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> All the best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Randy<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > On 2 Nov 2022, at 7:29 PM, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Randy,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Thanks for your comment. The last couple of days I've received a flurry<br></div><div dir="ltr">> of very helpful references and pointers concerning the phenomenon in<br></div><div dir="ltr">> question, which seem to point to it not being "a simple pragmatic<br></div><div dir="ltr">> phenomenon" of the kind you suggest. Also, with the possible exception of<br></div><div dir="ltr">> a reference to German, nobody so far has offered examples of similar<br></div><div dir="ltr">> processes in other languages, and indeed, I can't think of anything like it<br></div><div dir="ltr">> in the other languages I am familiar with.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > David<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > On 02/11/2022 12:33, Randy LaPolla wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> >> Good question, David!<br></div><div dir="ltr">> >> Not a matter of phonetics or morphology, though.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> >> Possibly a simple pragmatic phenomenon where predictable elements,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> especially topics, can be left unspoken.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> >> Common in many languages.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> >> Not considered ?grammatical? in English, but maybe English is changing.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> >><br></div><div dir="ltr">> >> Randy<br></div><div dir="ltr">> >><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > --<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > David Gil<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Senior Scientist (Associate)<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br></div><div dir="ltr">> > Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302<br></div><div dir="ltr">> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> _______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Lingtyp mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">-- <br></div><div dir="ltr">Riccardo Giomi, Ph.D.<br></div><div dir="ltr">University of Li?ge<br></div><div dir="ltr">D?partement de langues modernes : linguistique, litt?rature et traduction<br></div><div dir="ltr">Research group *Linguistique contrastive et typologie des langues*<br></div><div dir="ltr">F.R.S.-FNRS Postdoctoral fellow (CR - FC 43095)<br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20221102/a6684bdc/attachment-0001.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20221102/a6684bdc/attachment-0001.htm</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 7<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 10:20:38 -0700<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Daniel Ross <<a href="mailto:djross3@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">djross3@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: 1st syllable deletion<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID:<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a href="mailto:CAAm4d-5K7KnvBt3C-uX3Sx5Ny_TeHNZPktoy5GkvTN0KdF4BXg@mail.gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">CAAm4d-5K7KnvBt3C-uX3Sx5Ny_TeHNZPktoy5GkvTN0KdF4BXg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Interesting discussion, everyone!<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">David, I've been thinking about this for a couple days now (but did not<br></div><div dir="ltr">reply because I wasn't aware of specific references to suggest). My initial<br></div><div dir="ltr">intuition was that this is not phonological, and not about syllables. But<br></div><div dir="ltr">since English pronouns (at least the basic ones) are all monosyllabic, it's<br></div><div dir="ltr">hard to test that. The messages from others have mostly fit with my<br></div><div dir="ltr">intuition, with some additional points to think about too.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">A common (perhaps at this point strawman) functional explanation for<br></div><div dir="ltr">"pro-drop" is that rich agreement allows recovery of the subject identity<br></div><div dir="ltr">so the pronoun itself is optional. But rich agreement does not always<br></div><div dir="ltr">license pro-drop, such as in German or Russian. (And even in English, we<br></div><div dir="ltr">might assume it should be allowed in third-person singular present-tense.)<br></div><div dir="ltr">More importantly, there are also languages such as Japanese which allow<br></div><div dir="ltr">pronoun ellipsis but do not have rich agreement (or any agreement at all).<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">But in this case (which as pointed out by others is not "pro-drop" in a<br></div><div dir="ltr">strict sense), that kind of functional explanation does seem to be the<br></div><div dir="ltr">right approach: this kind of ellipsis is only found with contextually<br></div><div dir="ltr">salient forms.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">The explanation cannot be purely phonological. No English speaker would<br></div><div dir="ltr">ever say:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">*Guistics is fun!<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">That's too hard to understand. Omission of ling- is not possible, because<br></div><div dir="ltr">Linguistics is such a rare grammatical subject. Of course I can imagine<br></div><div dir="ltr">this could be primed, perhaps at the next ALT conference!<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Therefore, this phenomenon must be frequency-based. And in fact that's<br></div><div dir="ltr">exactly what all of the examples are, such as Riccardo's in the previous<br></div><div dir="ltr">message. Almost all of these are set phrases or common pronouns in<br></div><div dir="ltr">contextually-relevant usage, such as questions with "you", or statements<br></div><div dir="ltr">with "I". I haven't done a corpus search (searching for ellipsis is<br></div><div dir="ltr">tricky!), but I assume we would find a substantial bias toward frequent<br></div><div dir="ltr">collocations, as well as some pronouns rather than others, given the type<br></div><div dir="ltr">of usage that is typical.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">At the same time, it isn't really syntactic either, and it's not full<br></div><div dir="ltr">constituents ("...the hell", "...the fuck", "...cazzo"). I'd guess that<br></div><div dir="ltr">pronouns and the other partial-constituent expressions are distinct types,<br></div><div dir="ltr">but in general they seem to have similar properties, most importantly that<br></div><div dir="ltr">they are high-frequency and predictable.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">What we're looking at then seems to be more a kind of *abbreviation* than<br></div><div dir="ltr">*ellipsis*. Sound change is regular except for idioms and other frequent<br></div><div dir="ltr">expressions (i.e. allegro speech). "God be with you" becomes "goodbye", but<br></div><div dir="ltr">only for that expression. So this is more about lexicalization and<br></div><div dir="ltr">frequency than a strictly phonological *or *strictly syntactic rule. The<br></div><div dir="ltr">pronoun type may need a more syntax-based explanation, but I think this is<br></div><div dir="ltr">still part of it.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">The omitted syllable is probably just reduced to the point of being<br></div><div dir="ltr">unpronounced, because it is (extremely) unstressed, because it is<br></div><div dir="ltr">(extremely) predictable. In fact, I would bet that at least some of the<br></div><div dir="ltr">time the speaker actually mouths the first syllable but doesn't utter it<br></div><div dir="ltr">audibly. David, that matches some of what you suggested, but I'm<br></div><div dir="ltr">interpreting it differently, or at least in a restricted way. There is a<br></div><div dir="ltr">prosodic explanation, but most importantly within a frequency explanation.<br></div><div dir="ltr">And in a sense it's more about *morphology* than syntax or phonology.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">If we tie all of this together, and here's where it gets interesting, this<br></div><div dir="ltr">seems to suggest that multi-word expressions allowing omission of the first<br></div><div dir="ltr">syllable (or more) are actually single, frequent lexical items. And<br></div><div dir="ltr">regarding pronoun subjects, they not only have characteristic prosodies,<br></div><div dir="ltr">which could in itself be considered something resembling lexicalization,<br></div><div dir="ltr">but arguably if we assume that phonologically null syntactic structure can<br></div><div dir="ltr">also be lexicalized, we might get, for example, "Q+you" for second-person<br></div><div dir="ltr">questions, which occurs so often that it can be omitted and still<br></div><div dir="ltr">recovered. Or just a lexicalized prosody explanation if you prefer.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Of course this can spread by analogy (but not a regular rule!) to new<br></div><div dir="ltr">expressions, but only when those expressions are also relatively frequent<br></div><div dir="ltr">and predictable.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Daniel<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 9:36 AM Riccardo Giomi <<a href="mailto:rgiomi@campus.ul.pt" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">rgiomi@campus.ul.pt</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Dear David and all,<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> For what it's worth, I tend to agree with Randy and Christian. One<br></div><div dir="ltr">> possible argument against a rule-based deletion/ellipsis account comes from<br></div><div dir="ltr">> central varieties of Italian (including my own), and concerns, once again,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> emphatic *wh-*questions -- suggesting a cross-linguistic pattern that, I<br></div><div dir="ltr">> suspect, may also be found in other languages.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> The "full" version of the type of question I have in mind makes use of the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> emphatic element *cazzo *(slang for 'penis', but functionally largely<br></div><div dir="ltr">> equivalent to English *fuck*), postponed to the clause-initial *wh-*word,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> e.g.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> - *Che cazzo fai? *'What the fuck are you doing?'<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> I often hear (and probably produce myself) "reduced" versions of similar<br></div><div dir="ltr">> questions, including the following:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> - *Cazzo fai?*<br></div><div dir="ltr">> -* Azzo fai?*<br></div><div dir="ltr">> *- Zzo fai?*<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> In the first case, it is only the first word and syllable *che *that<br></div><div dir="ltr">> would be deleted; in the second, it's this word/syllable plus the onset of<br></div><div dir="ltr">> the second syllable (which belongs to the second syntactic word); in the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> third the first word/syllable plus the whole second syllable (i.e. the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> first syllable of the second syntactic word). And I also recognize the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> forms *Zzo vai? *and *Azzo vai? *for *Dove cazzo vai? *('Where the fuck<br></div><div dir="ltr">> are you going?'), where the (by hypothesis) elided part consists of two and<br></div><div dir="ltr">> a half and three syllables, respectively, again cutting across syntactic<br></div><div dir="ltr">> domains.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> What this all suggests to me is that, if the correct explanation was<br></div><div dir="ltr">> indeed one in term of deletion or ellipsis, then either it is a composite<br></div><div dir="ltr">> rule that cuts across phonology and syntax, or it would be a merely<br></div><div dir="ltr">> phonological rule allowing deletion of phonological strings that do not<br></div><div dir="ltr">> necessarily coincide with syllables (which sounds kind of weird, at least<br></div><div dir="ltr">> for Italian), and may stretch over three entire syllables (and maybe more,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> but this is what I could think of for the moment). Rather than postulating<br></div><div dir="ltr">> such a complex rule, which for more I don't think is found in any other<br></div><div dir="ltr">> type of utterance in Italian, I find it much more economical and<br></div><div dir="ltr">> psycholinguistically plausible (but the latter is of course quite a shot in<br></div><div dir="ltr">> the dark) to assume that the point is precisely the omission of the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> predictable elements from this specific type of emphatic question. The<br></div><div dir="ltr">> constraint appears to be that only the most distinctive (and perceptually<br></div><div dir="ltr">> salient) element, i.e. the second syllable of *cazzo*, must be retained<br></div><div dir="ltr">> for the utterance-type in question to be easily identified.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Sorry for my stream of consciousness!<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Riccardo<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Randy J. LaPolla <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>> escreveu no dia quarta,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> 2/11/2022 ?(s) 13:35:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Hi David,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> I don?t like the term ?prodrop?, as it takes English, which is<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> typologically actually the odd man out, as the norm, and all of the many<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> languages that have not grammaticalised the grammatical mood constructions<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> that require pronouns to be retained in English are seen as aberrant, but<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> for languages that do not have such constructions, e.g. Chinese, the kind<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> of pattern we have been talking about is the norm.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> All the best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Randy<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> > On 2 Nov 2022, at 7:29 PM, David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> > Randy,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> > Thanks for your comment. The last couple of days I've received a<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> flurry of very helpful references and pointers concerning the phenomenon in<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> question, which seem to point to it not being "a simple pragmatic<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> phenomenon" of the kind you suggest. Also, with the possible exception of<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> a reference to German, nobody so far has offered examples of similar<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> processes in other languages, and indeed, I can't think of anything like it<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> in the other languages I am familiar with.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> > Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> > David<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> > On 02/11/2022 12:33, Randy LaPolla wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> >> Good question, David!<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> >> Not a matter of phonetics or morphology, though.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> >> Possibly a simple pragmatic phenomenon where predictable elements,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> especially topics, can be left unspoken.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> >> Common in many languages.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> >> Not considered ?grammatical? in English, but maybe English is changing.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> >><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> >> Randy<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> >><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> > --<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> > David Gil<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> > Senior Scientist (Associate)<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> > Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> > Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> > Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> > Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> > Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> > Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> ><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> _______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Lingtyp mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> <a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> --<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Riccardo Giomi, Ph.D.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> University of Li?ge<br></div><div dir="ltr">> D?partement de langues modernes : linguistique, litt?rature et traduction<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Research group *Linguistique contrastive et typologie des langues*<br></div><div dir="ltr">> F.R.S.-FNRS Postdoctoral fellow (CR - FC 43095)<br></div><div dir="ltr">> _______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Lingtyp mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20221102/0a9ea9e5/attachment-0001.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20221102/0a9ea9e5/attachment-0001.htm</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Digest Footer<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">_______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">Lingtyp mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">End of Lingtyp Digest, Vol 98, Issue 3<br></div><div dir="ltr">**************************************<br></div></div>
</div>
</div></body></html>