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Hello, </div>
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<br>
</div>
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I would probably gloss it with REFL rather than REC</div>
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t'inquiète</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="elementToProof">
REFL-worry(:IMPR:SG)</div>
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<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="elementToProof">
This is from the verb "s'inquiéter", which lexically includes a "bleached" reflexive/middle marker. </div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="elementToProof">
So "je m'inquiète", "tu t'inquiètes", "elle s'inquiète", etc.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="elementToProof">
These pronouns do not index a second argument. </div>
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<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="elementToProof">
Cheers, Maïa</div>
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<br>
</div>
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<br>
</div>
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<br>
</div>
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<br>
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<span style="font-size:small">Dr Maïa Ponsonnet</span></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: small;">Chargée de Recherche, Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, </span><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: small;">Laboratoire
Dynamique Du Language</span></p>
<p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif, serif, EmojiFont; font-size: small;">Adjunct Researcher, Discipline of Linguistics, The University of Western Australia</span></p>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Jocelyn Aznar <contact@jocelynaznar.eu><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 3 November 2022 2:55 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Lingtyp] query: 1st syllable deletion</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div class="BodyFragment"><font size="2"><span style="font-size:11pt;">
<div class="PlainText">Thanks for this very interesting example. I really the fact that this
<br>
sentence "t'inquiète", even though it contains only affirmative <br>
morphemes, can only be interpreted as negative.<br>
<br>
I'm not so sure about the glossing though:<br>
/t'inquiète!/ (REC-worry) 'do worry'<br>
<br>
and explained it as to actually mean /*ne* t'inquiète *pas*/ (NEG <br>
REC-worry-NEG)<br>
<br>
I guess here REC stands for "recent, recent past". I'm not sure why you <br>
glossed it like this instead of "2SG.ACC-worry" or "2SG.ACC=worry".<br>
<br>
For a French speaker, event without the negation, this expression is not <br>
ambiguous, as the affirmative form would be:<br>
<br>
"inquiète-toi". "worry=2SG.tonic¹<br>
<br>
The "tonic" pronoun should be at the end for an affirmative imperative <br>
sentence. Thus when one starts by saying : "t'inquiète [...]", a French <br>
speaker already knows it's a negative form. But I would add that the <br>
shortening is not really happening on /*ne*/ in /*ne* t'inquiète *pas*/ <br>
but on /*pas*/, as in /t'inquiète *pas*/, as the "ne" is not really <br>
often used².<br>
<br>
Thus here, I would say that we don't have to deal with the case of a <br>
first word removal, but (mostly) of the last one.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
¹: I'm actually not sure how should be described "toi" using <br>
descriptive/typological terms, if someone has a suggestion. The French <br>
grammatical tradition calls it "pronom tonique", but I haven't look at <br>
how to render this in English.<br>
<br>
²: Maybe somehow the deletion of "ne" is related to this whole deletion <br>
discussion, but has already been grammaticalized. I would be interested <br>
to know about when French-speaking children are actually learning to use <br>
the "ne", but that's another topic.<br>
<br>
Le 03/11/2022 à 13:57, MARINE vuillermet a écrit :<br>
> French speakers very systematically use/t'inquiète!/ (REC-worry) 'do <br>
> worry' to actually mean /*ne* t'inquiète *pas*/ (NEG REC-worry-NEG) <br>
> 'don't worry'. Here the entire negation is ellipsed, and I see it as a <br>
> confirmation of it being a very pragmatic phenomenon where very <br>
> predictable elements can be left unspoken without leading to confusion.<br>
> <br>
> Best,<br>
> <br>
> Marine<br>
> <br>
> Marine Vuillermet <br>
> <<a href="https://www.comparativelinguistics.uzh.ch/en/staff/vuillermet.html">https://www.comparativelinguistics.uzh.ch/en/staff/vuillermet.html</a>><br>
> Postdoctoral fellow//<br>
> -----<br>
> University of Zürich<br>
> Department of Comparative Linguistics <br>
> <<a href="https://www.comparativelinguistics.uzh.ch/en/ma.html">https://www.comparativelinguistics.uzh.ch/en/ma.html</a>><br>
> /Out Of Asia <<a href="https://www.outofasia.uzh.ch/en.html">https://www.outofasia.uzh.ch/en.html</a>>: Linguistic
<br>
> Diversity and Population History/<br>
> /<br>
> /<br>
> "Humans and flies diverged from a common ancestor about 600 million <br>
> years ago." (Baum & Smith 2013:5)<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Le jeudi 3 novembre 2022 à 13:01:56 UTC+1, <br>
> lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org <br>
> <lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org> a écrit :<br>
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> Today's Topics:<br>
> <br>
> 1. Re: query: 1st syllable deletion (Christian Lehmann)<br>
> 2. Re: query: 1st syllable deletion (David Gil)<br>
> 3. Re: query: 1st syllable deletion (Randy J. LaPolla)<br>
> 4. Re: query: 1st syllable deletion (David Gil)<br>
> 5. Re: query: 1st syllable deletion (Marianne Mithun)<br>
> 6. Re: query: 1st syllable deletion (Riccardo Giomi)<br>
> 7. Re: query: 1st syllable deletion (Daniel Ross)<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Message: 1<br>
> Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2022 13:06:08 +0100<br>
> From: Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de <br>
> <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de">mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>>><br>
> To: lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <br>
> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: 1st syllable deletion<br>
> Message-ID: <fb9ff7eb-68fc-b271-1c92-32e80e14e33f@Uni-Erfurt.De <br>
> <<a href="mailto:fb9ff7eb-68fc-b271-1c92-32e80e14e33f@Uni-Erfurt.De">mailto:fb9ff7eb-68fc-b271-1c92-32e80e14e33f@Uni-Erfurt.De</a>>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br>
> <br>
> Am 02.11.22 um 11:33 schrieb Randy LaPolla:<br>
> > Good question, David!<br>
> > Not a matter of phonetics or morphology, though.<br>
> > Possibly a simple pragmatic phenomenon where predictable elements,<br>
> > especially topics, can be left unspoken.<br>
> > Common in many languages.<br>
> > Not considered ?grammatical? in English, but maybe English is changing.<br>
> ><br>
> > Randy<br>
> ><br>
> Judging from German, Randy seems to be on the right track here. See:<br>
> <br>
> Lehmann, Christian 1991, ?Grammaticalization and related changes in<br>
> contemporary German?. Traugott, Elizabeth C. & Heine, Bernd (eds.),<br>
> /Approaches to grammaticalization/. Vol. II: Focus on types of<br>
> grammatical markers. Amsterdam & Philadelphia: J. Benjamins (Typological<br>
> Studies in Language, 19:2); 2:493-535. [ download<br>
> <<a href=""></a>https://www.researchgate.net/publication/246338410_Grammaticalization_and_related_changes_in_contemporary_German <<a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/246338410_Grammaticalization_and_related_changes_in_contemporary_German">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/246338410_Grammaticalization_and_related_changes_in_contemporary_German</a>>><br>
> ]; section 5.2.<br>
> <br>
> Best,<br>
> Christian<br>
> -- <br>
> <br>
> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
> Rudolfstr. 4<br>
> 99092 Erfurt<br>
> Deutschland<br>
> <br>
> Tel.: +49/361/2113417<br>
> E-Post: christianw_lehmann@arcor.de <<a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de">mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a>><br>
> Web: <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a> <<a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a>><br>
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> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Message: 2<br>
> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 13:29:50 +0200<br>
> From: David Gil <gil@shh.mpg.de <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>><br>
> To: Randy LaPolla <randy.lapolla@gmail.com <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com">mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>>><br>
> Cc: <LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org <br>
> <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org">mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: 1st syllable deletion<br>
> Message-ID: <dc6abfdc-5feb-7acd-e9d0-044ed0a45809@shh.mpg.de <br>
> <<a href="mailto:dc6abfdc-5feb-7acd-e9d0-044ed0a45809@shh.mpg.de">mailto:dc6abfdc-5feb-7acd-e9d0-044ed0a45809@shh.mpg.de</a>>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed<br>
> <br>
> Randy,<br>
> <br>
> Thanks for your comment.? The last couple of days I've received a flurry<br>
> of very helpful references and pointers concerning the phenomenon in<br>
> question, which seem to point to it not being "a simple pragmatic<br>
> phenomenon" of the kind you suggest.? Also, with the possible exception<br>
> of a reference to German, nobody so far has offered examples of similar<br>
> processes in other languages, and indeed, I can't think of anything like<br>
> it in the other languages I am familiar with.<br>
> <br>
> Best,<br>
> <br>
> David<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On 02/11/2022 12:33, Randy LaPolla wrote:<br>
> > Good question, David!<br>
> > Not a matter of phonetics or morphology, though.<br>
> > Possibly a simple pragmatic phenomenon where predictable elements,<br>
> > especially topics, can be left unspoken.<br>
> > Common in many languages.<br>
> > Not considered ?grammatical? in English, but maybe English is changing.<br>
> ><br>
> > Randy<br>
> ><br>
> -- <br>
> David Gil<br>
> <br>
> Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
> Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br>
> <br>
> Email: gil@shh.mpg.de <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Message: 3<br>
> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 20:35:36 +0800<br>
> From: "Randy J. LaPolla" <randy.lapolla@gmail.com <br>
> <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com">mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>>><br>
> To: David Gil <gil@shh.mpg.de <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>><br>
> Cc: LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org <br>
> <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org">mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: 1st syllable deletion<br>
> Message-ID: <CE016982-3138-4F01-8D72-BE23BD24D804@gmail.com <br>
> <<a href="mailto:CE016982-3138-4F01-8D72-BE23BD24D804@gmail.com">mailto:CE016982-3138-4F01-8D72-BE23BD24D804@gmail.com</a>>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8<br>
> <br>
> Hi David,<br>
> I don?t like the term ?prodrop?, as it takes English, which is <br>
> typologically actually the odd man out, as the norm, and all of the many <br>
> languages that have not grammaticalised the grammatical mood <br>
> constructions that require pronouns to be retained in English are seen <br>
> as aberrant, but for languages that do not have such constructions, e.g. <br>
> Chinese, the kind of pattern we have been talking about is the norm.<br>
> <br>
> All the best,<br>
> Randy<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> > On 2 Nov 2022, at 7:29 PM, David Gil <gil@shh.mpg.de <br>
> <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Randy,<br>
> ><br>
> > Thanks for your comment. The last couple of days I've received a <br>
> flurry of very helpful references and pointers concerning the phenomenon <br>
> in question, which seem to point to it not being "a simple pragmatic <br>
> phenomenon" of the kind you suggest. Also, with the possible exception <br>
> of a reference to German, nobody so far has offered examples of similar <br>
> processes in other languages, and indeed, I can't think of anything like <br>
> it in the other languages I am familiar with.<br>
> ><br>
> > Best,<br>
> ><br>
> > David<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On 02/11/2022 12:33, Randy LaPolla wrote:<br>
> >> Good question, David!<br>
> >> Not a matter of phonetics or morphology, though.<br>
> >> Possibly a simple pragmatic phenomenon where predictable elements, <br>
> especially topics, can be left unspoken.<br>
> >> Common in many languages.<br>
> >> Not considered ?grammatical? in English, but maybe English is changing.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Randy<br>
> >><br>
> > --<br>
> > David Gil<br>
> ><br>
> > Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
> > Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
> > Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
> > Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br>
> ><br>
> > Email: gil@shh.mpg.de <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
> > Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
> > Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302<br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Message: 4<br>
> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 17:03:21 +0200<br>
> From: David Gil <gil@shh.mpg.de <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>><br>
> To: "Randy J. LaPolla" <randy.lapolla@gmail.com <br>
> <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com">mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>>><br>
> Cc: <LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org <br>
> <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org">mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: 1st syllable deletion<br>
> Message-ID: <3f157863-42bc-a66d-4dad-9ad7bd7081b0@shh.mpg.de <br>
> <<a href="mailto:3f157863-42bc-a66d-4dad-9ad7bd7081b0@shh.mpg.de">mailto:3f157863-42bc-a66d-4dad-9ad7bd7081b0@shh.mpg.de</a>>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed<br>
> <br>
> Hi Randy,<br>
> <br>
> I share your dislike of the term "prodrop" and for probably the same<br>
> reasons.<br>
> <br>
> But I will dig my heels in and insist that the kind of phenomenon that<br>
> I'm asking about bears little resemblance to the much more pervasive and<br>
> across the board East and Southeast Asian practice of optional<br>
> expression of various categories that might be obligatory in some<br>
> Standard Average European languages.<br>
> <br>
> Since writing (below) to the effect that I have not seen anything<br>
> similar to this outside of English and possibly German, the discussion<br>
> has produced some possibly similar constructions in Italian (from<br>
> Riccardo) and Finnish (an offline response) - but nothing so far further<br>
> afield.<br>
> <br>
> David<br>
> <br>
> On 02/11/2022 14:35, Randy J. LaPolla wrote:<br>
> > Hi David,<br>
> > I don?t like the term ?prodrop?, as it takes English, which is <br>
> typologically actually the odd man out, as the norm, and all of the many <br>
> languages that have not grammaticalised the grammatical mood <br>
> constructions that require pronouns to be retained in English are seen <br>
> as aberrant, but for languages that do not have such constructions, e.g. <br>
> Chinese, the kind of pattern we have been talking about is the norm.<br>
> ><br>
> > All the best,<br>
> > Randy<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >> On 2 Nov 2022, at 7:29 PM, David Gil <gil@shh.mpg.de <br>
> <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>> wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >> Randy,<br>
> >><br>
> >> Thanks for your comment. The last couple of days I've received a <br>
> flurry of very helpful references and pointers concerning the phenomenon <br>
> in question, which seem to point to it not being "a simple pragmatic <br>
> phenomenon" of the kind you suggest. Also, with the possible exception <br>
> of a reference to German, nobody so far has offered examples of similar <br>
> processes in other languages, and indeed, I can't think of anything like <br>
> it in the other languages I am familiar with.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Best,<br>
> >><br>
> >> David<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> On 02/11/2022 12:33, Randy LaPolla wrote:<br>
> >>> Good question, David!<br>
> >>> Not a matter of phonetics or morphology, though.<br>
> >>> Possibly a simple pragmatic phenomenon where predictable elements, <br>
> especially topics, can be left unspoken.<br>
> >>> Common in many languages.<br>
> >>> Not considered ?grammatical? in English, but maybe English is changing.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Randy<br>
> >>><br>
> >> --<br>
> >> David Gil<br>
> >><br>
> >> Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
> >> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
> >> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
> >> Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br>
> >><br>
> >> Email: gil@shh.mpg.de <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
> >> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
> >> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302<br>
> >><br>
> -- <br>
> David Gil<br>
> <br>
> Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
> Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br>
> <br>
> Email: gil@shh.mpg.de <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Message: 5<br>
> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 08:31:48 -0700<br>
> From: Marianne Mithun <mithun@linguistics.ucsb.edu <br>
> <<a href="mailto:mithun@linguistics.ucsb.edu">mailto:mithun@linguistics.ucsb.edu</a>>><br>
> To: "Randy J. LaPolla" <randy.lapolla@gmail.com <br>
> <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com">mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>>><br>
> Cc: David Gil <gil@shh.mpg.de <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>>,
<br>
> LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org">mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: 1st syllable deletion<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <CAKvd2fD=WtVBYEG1ufHf5-zM8X7sxv+SD8qfOO4EinYJSuCCmw@mail.gmail.com <br>
> <<a href="mailto:SD8qfOO4EinYJSuCCmw@mail.gmail.com">mailto:SD8qfOO4EinYJSuCCmw@mail.gmail.com</a>>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
> <br>
> Bravo, Randy!<br>
> <br>
> Marianne<br>
> <br>
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 5:35 AM Randy J. LaPolla <randy.lapolla@gmail.com <br>
> <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com">mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > Hi David,<br>
> > I don?t like the term ?prodrop?, as it takes English, which is<br>
> > typologically actually the odd man out, as the norm, and all of the many<br>
> > languages that have not grammaticalised the grammatical mood <br>
> constructions<br>
> > that require pronouns to be retained in English are seen as aberrant, but<br>
> > for languages that do not have such constructions, e.g. Chinese, the kind<br>
> > of pattern we have been talking about is the norm.<br>
> ><br>
> > All the best,<br>
> > Randy<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > > On 2 Nov 2022, at 7:29 PM, David Gil <gil@shh.mpg.de <br>
> <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>> wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Randy,<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Thanks for your comment. The last couple of days I've received a <br>
> flurry<br>
> > of very helpful references and pointers concerning the phenomenon in<br>
> > question, which seem to point to it not being "a simple pragmatic<br>
> > phenomenon" of the kind you suggest. Also, with the possible <br>
> exception of<br>
> > a reference to German, nobody so far has offered examples of similar<br>
> > processes in other languages, and indeed, I can't think of anything <br>
> like it<br>
> > in the other languages I am familiar with.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Best,<br>
> > ><br>
> > > David<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > On 02/11/2022 12:33, Randy LaPolla wrote:<br>
> > >> Good question, David!<br>
> > >> Not a matter of phonetics or morphology, though.<br>
> > >> Possibly a simple pragmatic phenomenon where predictable elements,<br>
> > especially topics, can be left unspoken.<br>
> > >> Common in many languages.<br>
> > >> Not considered ?grammatical? in English, but maybe English is <br>
> changing.<br>
> > >><br>
> > >> Randy<br>
> > >><br>
> > > --<br>
> > > David Gil<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
> > > Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
> > > Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
> > > Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Email: gil@shh.mpg.de <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
> > > Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
> > > Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302<br>
> > ><br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Lingtyp mailing list<br>
> > Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <br>
> <<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
> > <a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">
https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a> <br>
> <<a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>><br>
> ><br>
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> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Message: 6<br>
> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 14:35:46 +0100<br>
> From: Riccardo Giomi <rgiomi@campus.ul.pt <<a href="mailto:rgiomi@campus.ul.pt">mailto:rgiomi@campus.ul.pt</a>>><br>
> To: "Randy J. LaPolla" <randy.lapolla@gmail.com <br>
> <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com">mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>>><br>
> Cc: David Gil <gil@shh.mpg.de <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>>,
<br>
> LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org <<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org">mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: 1st syllable deletion<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <CA+KJqQErJFfghBRf927r_FYHBcxGb6FnncOYHtSoHd8LGHLWpA@mail.gmail.com <br>
> <<a href="mailto:KJqQErJFfghBRf927r_FYHBcxGb6FnncOYHtSoHd8LGHLWpA@mail.gmail.com">mailto:KJqQErJFfghBRf927r_FYHBcxGb6FnncOYHtSoHd8LGHLWpA@mail.gmail.com</a>>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
> <br>
> Dear David and all,<br>
> <br>
> For what it's worth, I tend to agree with Randy and Christian. One possible<br>
> argument against a rule-based deletion/ellipsis account comes from central<br>
> varieties of Italian (including my own), and concerns, once again, emphatic<br>
> *wh-*questions -- suggesting a cross-linguistic pattern that, I suspect,<br>
> may also be found in other languages.<br>
> <br>
> The "full" version of the type of question I have in mind makes use of the<br>
> emphatic element *cazzo *(slang for 'penis', but functionally largely<br>
> equivalent to English *fuck*), postponed to the clause-initial *wh-*word,<br>
> e.g.<br>
> <br>
> - *Che cazzo fai? *'What the fuck are you doing?'<br>
> <br>
> I often hear (and probably produce myself) "reduced" versions of similar<br>
> questions, including the following:<br>
> <br>
> - *Cazzo fai?*<br>
> -* Azzo fai?*<br>
> *- Zzo fai?*<br>
> <br>
> In the first case, it is only the first word and syllable *che *that would<br>
> be deleted; in the second, it's this word/syllable plus the onset of the<br>
> second syllable (which belongs to the second syntactic word); in the third<br>
> the first word/syllable plus the whole second syllable (i.e. the first<br>
> syllable of the second syntactic word). And I also recognize the forms *Zzo<br>
> vai? *and *Azzo vai? *for *Dove cazzo vai? *('Where the fuck are you<br>
> going?'), where the (by hypothesis) elided part consists of two and a half<br>
> and three syllables, respectively, again cutting across syntactic domains.<br>
> <br>
> What this all suggests to me is that, if the correct explanation was indeed<br>
> one in term of deletion or ellipsis, then either it is a composite rule<br>
> that cuts across phonology and syntax, or it would be a merely phonological<br>
> rule allowing deletion of phonological strings that do not necessarily<br>
> coincide with syllables (which sounds kind of weird, at least for Italian),<br>
> and may stretch over three entire syllables (and maybe more, but this is<br>
> what I could think of for the moment). Rather than postulating such a<br>
> complex rule, which for more I don't think is found in any other type of<br>
> utterance in Italian, I find it much more economical and<br>
> psycholinguistically plausible (but the latter is of course quite a shot in<br>
> the dark) to assume that the point is precisely the omission of the<br>
> predictable elements from this specific type of emphatic question. The<br>
> constraint appears to be that only the most distinctive (and perceptually<br>
> salient) element, i.e. the second syllable of *cazzo*, must be retained for<br>
> the utterance-type in question to be easily identified.<br>
> <br>
> Sorry for my stream of consciousness!<br>
> <br>
> Best,<br>
> Riccardo<br>
> <br>
> Randy J. LaPolla <randy.lapolla@gmail.com <br>
> <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com">mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>>> escreveu no dia quarta,<br>
> 2/11/2022 ?(s) 13:35:<br>
> <br>
> > Hi David,<br>
> > I don?t like the term ?prodrop?, as it takes English, which is<br>
> > typologically actually the odd man out, as the norm, and all of the many<br>
> > languages that have not grammaticalised the grammatical mood <br>
> constructions<br>
> > that require pronouns to be retained in English are seen as aberrant, but<br>
> > for languages that do not have such constructions, e.g. Chinese, the kind<br>
> > of pattern we have been talking about is the norm.<br>
> ><br>
> > All the best,<br>
> > Randy<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > > On 2 Nov 2022, at 7:29 PM, David Gil <gil@shh.mpg.de <br>
> <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>> wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Randy,<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Thanks for your comment. The last couple of days I've received a <br>
> flurry<br>
> > of very helpful references and pointers concerning the phenomenon in<br>
> > question, which seem to point to it not being "a simple pragmatic<br>
> > phenomenon" of the kind you suggest. Also, with the possible <br>
> exception of<br>
> > a reference to German, nobody so far has offered examples of similar<br>
> > processes in other languages, and indeed, I can't think of anything <br>
> like it<br>
> > in the other languages I am familiar with.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Best,<br>
> > ><br>
> > > David<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > On 02/11/2022 12:33, Randy LaPolla wrote:<br>
> > >> Good question, David!<br>
> > >> Not a matter of phonetics or morphology, though.<br>
> > >> Possibly a simple pragmatic phenomenon where predictable elements,<br>
> > especially topics, can be left unspoken.<br>
> > >> Common in many languages.<br>
> > >> Not considered ?grammatical? in English, but maybe English is <br>
> changing.<br>
> > >><br>
> > >> Randy<br>
> > >><br>
> > > --<br>
> > > David Gil<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
> > > Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
> > > Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
> > > Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Email: gil@shh.mpg.de <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
> > > Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
> > > Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302<br>
> > ><br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Lingtyp mailing list<br>
> > Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <br>
> <<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
> > <a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">
https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a> <br>
> <<a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>><br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
> Riccardo Giomi, Ph.D.<br>
> University of Li?ge<br>
> D?partement de langues modernes : linguistique, litt?rature et traduction<br>
> Research group *Linguistique contrastive et typologie des langues*<br>
> F.R.S.-FNRS Postdoctoral fellow (CR - FC 43095)<br>
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> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> Message: 7<br>
> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 10:20:38 -0700<br>
> From: Daniel Ross <djross3@gmail.com <<a href="mailto:djross3@gmail.com">mailto:djross3@gmail.com</a>>><br>
> To: lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <br>
> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: 1st syllable deletion<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <CAAm4d-5K7KnvBt3C-uX3Sx5Ny_TeHNZPktoy5GkvTN0KdF4BXg@mail.gmail.com <br>
> <<a href="mailto:CAAm4d-5K7KnvBt3C-uX3Sx5Ny_TeHNZPktoy5GkvTN0KdF4BXg@mail.gmail.com">mailto:CAAm4d-5K7KnvBt3C-uX3Sx5Ny_TeHNZPktoy5GkvTN0KdF4BXg@mail.gmail.com</a>>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
> <br>
> Interesting discussion, everyone!<br>
> <br>
> David, I've been thinking about this for a couple days now (but did not<br>
> reply because I wasn't aware of specific references to suggest). My initial<br>
> intuition was that this is not phonological, and not about syllables. But<br>
> since English pronouns (at least the basic ones) are all monosyllabic, it's<br>
> hard to test that. The messages from others have mostly fit with my<br>
> intuition, with some additional points to think about too.<br>
> <br>
> A common (perhaps at this point strawman) functional explanation for<br>
> "pro-drop" is that rich agreement allows recovery of the subject identity<br>
> so the pronoun itself is optional. But rich agreement does not always<br>
> license pro-drop, such as in German or Russian. (And even in English, we<br>
> might assume it should be allowed in third-person singular present-tense.)<br>
> More importantly, there are also languages such as Japanese which allow<br>
> pronoun ellipsis but do not have rich agreement (or any agreement at all).<br>
> <br>
> But in this case (which as pointed out by others is not "pro-drop" in a<br>
> strict sense), that kind of functional explanation does seem to be the<br>
> right approach: this kind of ellipsis is only found with contextually<br>
> salient forms.<br>
> <br>
> The explanation cannot be purely phonological. No English speaker would<br>
> ever say:<br>
> <br>
> *Guistics is fun!<br>
> <br>
> That's too hard to understand. Omission of ling- is not possible, because<br>
> Linguistics is such a rare grammatical subject. Of course I can imagine<br>
> this could be primed, perhaps at the next ALT conference!<br>
> <br>
> Therefore, this phenomenon must be frequency-based. And in fact that's<br>
> exactly what all of the examples are, such as Riccardo's in the previous<br>
> message. Almost all of these are set phrases or common pronouns in<br>
> contextually-relevant usage, such as questions with "you", or statements<br>
> with "I". I haven't done a corpus search (searching for ellipsis is<br>
> tricky!), but I assume we would find a substantial bias toward frequent<br>
> collocations, as well as some pronouns rather than others, given the type<br>
> of usage that is typical.<br>
> <br>
> At the same time, it isn't really syntactic either, and it's not full<br>
> constituents ("...the hell", "...the fuck", "...cazzo"). I'd guess that<br>
> pronouns and the other partial-constituent expressions are distinct types,<br>
> but in general they seem to have similar properties, most importantly that<br>
> they are high-frequency and predictable.<br>
> <br>
> What we're looking at then seems to be more a kind of *abbreviation* than<br>
> *ellipsis*. Sound change is regular except for idioms and other frequent<br>
> expressions (i.e. allegro speech). "God be with you" becomes "goodbye", but<br>
> only for that expression. So this is more about lexicalization and<br>
> frequency than a strictly phonological *or *strictly syntactic rule. The<br>
> pronoun type may need a more syntax-based explanation, but I think this is<br>
> still part of it.<br>
> <br>
> The omitted syllable is probably just reduced to the point of being<br>
> unpronounced, because it is (extremely) unstressed, because it is<br>
> (extremely) predictable. In fact, I would bet that at least some of the<br>
> time the speaker actually mouths the first syllable but doesn't utter it<br>
> audibly. David, that matches some of what you suggested, but I'm<br>
> interpreting it differently, or at least in a restricted way. There is a<br>
> prosodic explanation, but most importantly within a frequency explanation.<br>
> And in a sense it's more about *morphology* than syntax or phonology.<br>
> <br>
> If we tie all of this together, and here's where it gets interesting, this<br>
> seems to suggest that multi-word expressions allowing omission of the first<br>
> syllable (or more) are actually single, frequent lexical items. And<br>
> regarding pronoun subjects, they not only have characteristic prosodies,<br>
> which could in itself be considered something resembling lexicalization,<br>
> but arguably if we assume that phonologically null syntactic structure can<br>
> also be lexicalized, we might get, for example, "Q+you" for second-person<br>
> questions, which occurs so often that it can be omitted and still<br>
> recovered. Or just a lexicalized prosody explanation if you prefer.<br>
> <br>
> Of course this can spread by analogy (but not a regular rule!) to new<br>
> expressions, but only when those expressions are also relatively frequent<br>
> and predictable.<br>
> <br>
> Daniel<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 9:36 AM Riccardo Giomi <rgiomi@campus.ul.pt <br>
> <<a href="mailto:rgiomi@campus.ul.pt">mailto:rgiomi@campus.ul.pt</a>>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > Dear David and all,<br>
> ><br>
> > For what it's worth, I tend to agree with Randy and Christian. One<br>
> > possible argument against a rule-based deletion/ellipsis account <br>
> comes from<br>
> > central varieties of Italian (including my own), and concerns, once <br>
> again,<br>
> > emphatic *wh-*questions -- suggesting a cross-linguistic pattern that, I<br>
> > suspect, may also be found in other languages.<br>
> ><br>
> > The "full" version of the type of question I have in mind makes use <br>
> of the<br>
> > emphatic element *cazzo *(slang for 'penis', but functionally largely<br>
> > equivalent to English *fuck*), postponed to the clause-initial *wh-*word,<br>
> > e.g.<br>
> ><br>
> > - *Che cazzo fai? *'What the fuck are you doing?'<br>
> ><br>
> > I often hear (and probably produce myself) "reduced" versions of similar<br>
> > questions, including the following:<br>
> ><br>
> > - *Cazzo fai?*<br>
> > -* Azzo fai?*<br>
> > *- Zzo fai?*<br>
> ><br>
> > In the first case, it is only the first word and syllable *che *that<br>
> > would be deleted; in the second, it's this word/syllable plus the <br>
> onset of<br>
> > the second syllable (which belongs to the second syntactic word); in the<br>
> > third the first word/syllable plus the whole second syllable (i.e. the<br>
> > first syllable of the second syntactic word). And I also recognize the<br>
> > forms *Zzo vai? *and *Azzo vai? *for *Dove cazzo vai? *('Where the fuck<br>
> > are you going?'), where the (by hypothesis) elided part consists of <br>
> two and<br>
> > a half and three syllables, respectively, again cutting across syntactic<br>
> > domains.<br>
> ><br>
> > What this all suggests to me is that, if the correct explanation was<br>
> > indeed one in term of deletion or ellipsis, then either it is a composite<br>
> > rule that cuts across phonology and syntax, or it would be a merely<br>
> > phonological rule allowing deletion of phonological strings that do not<br>
> > necessarily coincide with syllables (which sounds kind of weird, at least<br>
> > for Italian), and may stretch over three entire syllables (and maybe <br>
> more,<br>
> > but this is what I could think of for the moment). Rather than <br>
> postulating<br>
> > such a complex rule, which for more I don't think is found in any other<br>
> > type of utterance in Italian, I find it much more economical and<br>
> > psycholinguistically plausible (but the latter is of course quite a <br>
> shot in<br>
> > the dark) to assume that the point is precisely the omission of the<br>
> > predictable elements from this specific type of emphatic question. The<br>
> > constraint appears to be that only the most distinctive (and perceptually<br>
> > salient) element, i.e. the second syllable of *cazzo*, must be retained<br>
> > for the utterance-type in question to be easily identified.<br>
> ><br>
> > Sorry for my stream of consciousness!<br>
> ><br>
> > Best,<br>
> > Riccardo<br>
> ><br>
> > Randy J. LaPolla <randy.lapolla@gmail.com <br>
> <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com">mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>>> escreveu no dia quarta,<br>
> > 2/11/2022 ?(s) 13:35:<br>
> ><br>
> >> Hi David,<br>
> >> I don?t like the term ?prodrop?, as it takes English, which is<br>
> >> typologically actually the odd man out, as the norm, and all of the many<br>
> >> languages that have not grammaticalised the grammatical mood <br>
> constructions<br>
> >> that require pronouns to be retained in English are seen as <br>
> aberrant, but<br>
> >> for languages that do not have such constructions, e.g. Chinese, the <br>
> kind<br>
> >> of pattern we have been talking about is the norm.<br>
> >><br>
> >> All the best,<br>
> >> Randy<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> > On 2 Nov 2022, at 7:29 PM, David Gil <gil@shh.mpg.de <br>
> <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>> wrote:<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Randy,<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Thanks for your comment. The last couple of days I've received a<br>
> >> flurry of very helpful references and pointers concerning the <br>
> phenomenon in<br>
> >> question, which seem to point to it not being "a simple pragmatic<br>
> >> phenomenon" of the kind you suggest. Also, with the possible <br>
> exception of<br>
> >> a reference to German, nobody so far has offered examples of similar<br>
> >> processes in other languages, and indeed, I can't think of anything <br>
> like it<br>
> >> in the other languages I am familiar with.<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Best,<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > David<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > On 02/11/2022 12:33, Randy LaPolla wrote:<br>
> >> >> Good question, David!<br>
> >> >> Not a matter of phonetics or morphology, though.<br>
> >> >> Possibly a simple pragmatic phenomenon where predictable elements,<br>
> >> especially topics, can be left unspoken.<br>
> >> >> Common in many languages.<br>
> >> >> Not considered ?grammatical? in English, but maybe English is <br>
> changing.<br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >> Randy<br>
> >> >><br>
> >> > --<br>
> >> > David Gil<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
> >> > Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
> >> > Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
> >> > Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Email: gil@shh.mpg.de <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
> >> > Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
> >> > Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302<br>
> >> ><br>
> >><br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> Lingtyp mailing list<br>
> >> Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <br>
> <<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
> >> <a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">
https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a> <br>
> <<a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a>><br>
> >><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > Riccardo Giomi, Ph.D.<br>
> > University of Li?ge<br>
> > D?partement de langues modernes : linguistique, litt?rature et traduction<br>
> > Research group *Linguistique contrastive et typologie des langues*<br>
> > F.R.S.-FNRS Postdoctoral fellow (CR - FC 43095)<br>
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