<html xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Helvetica;
panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoListParagraph, li.MsoListParagraph, div.MsoListParagraph
{mso-style-priority:34;
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:windowtext;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:210657218;
mso-list-type:hybrid;
mso-list-template-ids:-1411600526 998404520 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Symbol;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
@list l0:level2
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l0:level3
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level4
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level5
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l0:level6
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level7
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level8
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:"Courier New";}
@list l0:level9
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:;
mso-level-tab-stop:none;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-.25in;
font-family:Wingdings;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0in;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0in;}
--></style>
</head>
<body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear Adam et al. – First, a couple of disclaimers:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I don’t mean to hijack this important discussion. I just want to point out that from where I look at things, what you’re raising is a classic tip-of-the-iceberg
problem.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I suspect what I’m about to say isn’t going to win me any popularity contests around here
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Apple Color Emoji"">😉</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">And here it is: Contemporary descriptive and documentary linguistics has *<b>no</b>* standards or criteria, not even qualitative ones (whatever that might mean), for assessing how well the examples we use
to illustrate the phenomena we document and describe represent the speech community, or indeed *<b>which</b>* community they represent.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">None.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I’d like to call this practice “epistemological pretend-naivete”.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">When people start using spectrograms or pitch tracks, which are meaningless unless interpreted quantitatively, like examples, the deficiencies of epistemological pretend-naivete become obvious.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">But that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Even if it’s a pretty fat tip. The broader problem concerns the status of *<b>all</b>* the examples we cite, regardless of whether they concern phonetic, morphosyntactic,
lexical, or ethnographic phenomena.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Now that much of linguistics is being dragged kicking and screaming into a quantitative turn, I think it’s way past time that we have a discussion of the status of examples in documentary and descriptive linguistics
in general.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Best -- Juergen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
<br>
There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="RU" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="RU" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman@utexas.edu><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, December 2, 2022 at 5:51 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Cat Butz <Cat.Butz@hhu.de><br>
<b>Cc: </b>lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and for language comparison<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">Hello Cat,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">That's what I think as well,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">But I'm not so sure this view is widely held ... I've had papers where reviewers ask for "phonetic evidence" and what they seem to mean is a single spectrogram or pitch
track as if those are informative by themselves - even aggregated statistical data of acoustic measurements doesn't count.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">Adam<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 11:41 AM Cat Butz <<a href="mailto:Cat.Butz@hhu.de">Cat.Butz@hhu.de</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Hi Adam,<br>
<br>
if I saw a single spectrogram in a description of a phenomenon, I'd <br>
assume it was there for illustrative purposes and nothing else. If we're <br>
going to conduct empirical research on a phonological phenomenon, we <br>
have to back it up with statistics, no? Otherwise, why even bother?<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
---<br>
Cat Butz (she)<br>
HHU Düsseldorf, general linguistics<br>
<br>
Cat Butz (sie)<br>
HHU Düsseldorf, allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 2022-11-27 11:24, schrieb Adam James Ross Tallman:<br>
> Hello all,<br>
> <br>
> I would like to start a conversation about something and I’m taking<br>
> a shot at lingtyp as a potential starting point for this discussion<br>
> (perhaps not the right venue, because the issue is perhaps specific to<br>
> phonological typology).<br>
> <br>
> One thing I’ve been confused and/or frustrated about since I started<br>
> investigating tone and stress has been the use of spectrograms and/or<br>
> pitch tracks in language description. It seems to me that linguists<br>
> have very different views about what spectrograms and/or pitch tracks<br>
> are for, but it has never been brought out in the open, to my<br>
> knowledge.<br>
> <br>
> When I was an MA student, I was basically taught that the main purpose<br>
> of a spectrogram was to show how one went about measuring some<br>
> phenomena in the acoustic signal. A pitch track could be an<br>
> expositional device to show variation in the signal perhaps related to<br>
> speaker differences or intonation (Cruz & Woodbury 2014). However,<br>
> spectrograms and pitch tracks are not “phonetic evidence” for a<br>
> phonological claim. Due to the variability of the phonetic signal,<br>
> acoustic phonetic data only really becomes phonetic evidence when it<br>
> is aggregated for the purpose of statistical analysis (Tallman 2010).<br>
> <br>
> At least that’s what I thought in 2011, but I realized later that<br>
> this was not the view shared by many linguists and, at least among<br>
> non-phoneticians, my position is perhaps a minority one. In grammars<br>
> and descriptive works, linguists often present individual spectrograms<br>
> and pitch tracks as one off data points that support a claim. In the<br>
> vast majority of the cases (except perhaps when vastly different<br>
> intonational contours are being compared), I often struggle to know<br>
> what the purpose of these displays or pictures are. How do we know<br>
> they are not cherry picked? How do we know that these displays are<br>
> representative?<br>
> <br>
> The differences of opinion about the use of spectrograms have emerged<br>
> for me in the reviewing process – one reviewer says this spectrogram<br>
> is useless, another says it's informative etc. one reviewer demands a<br>
> pitch track, another says it does not communicate anything . etc.<br>
> Opinions are simultaneously contradictory but aggressive and<br>
> definitive.<br>
> <br>
> Sometimes the subtlety of the pitch phenomena the linguist is<br>
> describing is way out of step with the ability of the pitch track to<br>
> represent. I look at the pitch track and I think: “I cannot<br>
> distinguish between pitch phenomena associated with tones and<br>
> microprosody in this example so it is unclear what the purpose of the<br>
> pitch track is or what it adds” or “if you were to tell me what<br>
> tones the language had and give me this spectrogram / pitch track, I<br>
> would not be able to associate them with any of the syllables in any<br>
> consistent way”. Or perhaps the algorithm used to draw pitch isn’t<br>
> appropriate and it's very difficult to understand what is being<br>
> communicated by the display.<br>
> <br>
> I have started to wonder whether there were any guidelines or<br>
> conventions for the use of spectrograms and whether others perhaps had<br>
> any thoughts on the issue. Specifically I am interested in the idea<br>
> that a single spectrogram could serve as “phonetic evidence”. I<br>
> still find this view strange in light of the well known<br>
> “stochastic” and “multivariate” relationship between<br>
> phonological categories and phonetic realization (Pierrehumbert,<br>
> Beckman, Ladd 2000; Mazaudon 2014, among many others), but it still<br>
> seems to be widely held in our field.<br>
> <br>
> Cruz, E. & Woodbury, A. C. 2014. Finding a way into a family of tone<br>
> languages: The story and methods of the Chatino Language Documentation<br>
> Project. _Language Documentation & Conservation _8:490-524.<br>
> <br>
> Mazaudon, M. 2014. Studying emergent tone-systems in Nepal: Pitch,<br>
> phonation and word-tone in Tamang. _Language Documentation &<br>
> Conversation _8:587-612.<br>
> <br>
> Pierrehumbert, J., Beckman, M. and Ladd, D. 2000. Conceptual<br>
> foundations of phonology as a laboratory science. _Phonological<br>
> knowledge: Conceptual and empirical issues. _Oxford: Oxford University<br>
> Press.<br>
> <br>
> Tallman, Adam. J.R. 2010. Acoustic correlates of Lenis and Fortis<br>
> Stops in Manitoba Saulteaux. MA Thesis: University of Manitoba.<br>
> --<br>
> <br>
> Adam J.R. Tallman<br>
> Post-doctoral Researcher<br>
> <br>
> Friedrich Schiller Universität<br>
> <br>
> Department of English Studies<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Lingtyp mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flistserv.linguistlist.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flingtyp&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C10c46d6269e04d4bff4708dad45324ce%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055750816478031%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=0fE72aKUvZEHIM%2BuYXLYcA5Yag15KnCjjRoDzfWxWUg%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><br clear="all">
<br>
-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Adam J.R. Tallman</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Post-doctoral Researcher
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Friedrich Schiller Universität</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Department of English Studies</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>