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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Jürgen,<br>
<br>
I am not sure how many members of this list would wish to continue
this discussion. Anyway:<br>
<br>
For something to count as proof in a science means that it
corresponds to a certain pattern of argumentation by the
methodological standards on which scientists have agreed. These
patterns are different for logical and for empirical sciences. I
feel reminded of<br>
<br>
Kamlah, Wilhelm & Lorenzen, Paul 1967, <i>Logische
Propädeutik. Vorschule des vernünftigen Redens.</i> Mannheim:
Bibliographisches Institut (B.I.-Hochschultaschenbücher).<br>
<br>
translated as:<br>
<i>Logical Propaedeutic: Pre-school of Reasonable Discourse.</i>
Lanham, Maryland: University Press of America, 1984.<br>
<br>
It is true that things are more complicated in empirical
disciplines because we have indeed to agree upon standards of
validity. And to the extent that it is impractical to
counter-check everything that a proponent assures his audience of,
there is a portion of trust involved in scientific discourse of an
empirical discipline.<br>
<br>
Things work the Kamlah-Lorenzen way if a scientific claim is a
simple general statement of the kind 'in German, the definite
article precedes (rather than follows) the nominal group'. To
prove it, according to established standards of our discipline, it
suffices for me to produce a (probatory) example of a certain
kind. If you do not accept it, you may either operationalize my
claim in such a way that what I produced does not count as an
example or to produce a counter-example (of a postnominal definite
article).<br>
<br>
The claim about the affix that you use as an example is more
complex since the issue appears to be what the correct analysis of
a certain occurrence is. This would have to be broken down into a
set of simpler statements in order to be tractable by Kamlah &
Lorenzen.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Christian<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 04.12.22 um 05:26 schrieb Juergen Bohnemeyer:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear
Christian – I stand corrected! Thanks for the link, I think
it’s great that you’ve looked into this issue. I sincerely
wish more people had.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">And I think
I agree with the policy you propose. But allow me to
elaborate just a little.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Now, at the
risk of splitting hairs, I’m afraid from where I look at
things, ‘probatory example’ is an oxymoron.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">There’s
nothing an example could prove. In fact, there’s no such
thing as proof in science. Proof only exists in math,
including in logic.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">The closest
equivalent to proof in science is hypothesis testing.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Can an
example ever be said to serve as a test of a hypothesis?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Let’s say
the author is aiming to adjudicate between two competing
analyses. One predicts that a certain affix will appear in a
certain environment, while the competing analysis predicts
that it won’t. Then the author produces an example that
instantiates the relevant context, and features or doesn’t
feature the affix, thereby confirming one prediction or the
other.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Under such
conditions, the example in question can assume a role
similar to that of hypothesis testing in experimental
science.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">But then
immediately validity concerns analogous to those in
experimentation will present themselves. Such as:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Internal validity: Was the
example correctly analyzed and coded? Is the occurrence of
the affix in question actually conditioned solely by the
factors the competing hypotheses assume, or could it also
be conditioned by other factors?<o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">External validity: Is the example
reproducible with other members of the speech community?
Assuming there are any left!<o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Ecological validity: Does the
example actually reflect the everyday linguistic behavior
of speakers of the language (/doculect)? Assuming there
still is everyday use by the members of the community!<o:p></o:p></span></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">As I see it,
the recommendations your webpage makes for documenting the
conditions under which a ‘probatory’ example was recorded go
some way toward addressing concerns with external and
ecological validity.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">But the
biggest challenge for addressing such concerns is in my view
that we haven’t developed standards for assessing and
reporting the empirical basis for our descriptions – the
speakers we collect the data from, and how well they/it
represent(s) the speech community, or which speech community
it represents.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Best --
Juergen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen
Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a
href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"
title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a
href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"
title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Office
hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom
(Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
<br>
There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light
Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="RU"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt" lang="RU"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on
behalf of Christian Lehmann
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de"><christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, December 2, 2022 at 10:18 AM<br>
<b>To: </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic
description and for language comparison<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear Jürgen,<br>
<br>
to mitigate a bit your pessimist opinion of the
methodological situation of our discipline, let me mention,
as a contribution to the discussion you are requiring, my
web page<br>
<a
href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VXi3oaBXPpkSUjObO9z%2Bg0ZPyvILV%2FkhMGG441T56L8%3D&reserved=0"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc</a><br>
which advocates a distinction between <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ol type="1" start="1">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
level1 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt">a probatory example (which is
data used as scientific evidence)<o:p></o:p></span></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
level1 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt">and an illustrative example
(or pedagogical example, which is only meant to render a
descriptive statement more concrete and, thus, to help
understanding).<o:p></o:p></span></li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Methodological
standards for these two kinds of examples are completely
different. On #1, I may recommend:<br>
<br>
<a
href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F249931781_Data_in_linguistics&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UI%2BLyj4NP2pzzyidgM3Z5nh72VJP%2FHCQl1UjmMWsRRI%3D&reserved=0"
moz-do-not-send="true">Lehmann, Christian 2004, “Data in
linguistics.” <i>The Linguistic Review</i>
21(3/4):275-310.</a><br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Christian<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Prof. em. Dr. Christian
Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Tel.:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">+49/361/2113417<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">E-Post:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><a
href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Web:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><a
href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HAeLu5NMoRkuDSO7t0wiYIxRVXp7%2FCh1yAPK8ixnqR0%3D&reserved=0"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></p>
<table style="font-size:80%">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>Tel.:</td>
<td>+49/361/2113417</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>E-Post:</td>
<td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Web:</td>
<td><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
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