<div dir="ltr">Hi everyone,<div><br></div><div>This has been a really interesting discussion; thank you Adam for starting it. </div><div><br></div><div>The role of examples (but perhaps not the role of spectrograms and other representations of sound (e.g. palatographs, etc.)) has received some attention in the general literature on grammar writing. The three book-length sources on grammar writing I'm familiar with (i.e., Ameka et al. 2006, Payne and Weber 2007 (based on an earlier special issue in Studies in Language) and Nakayama & Rice 2014) all include some discussion of examples in the various chapters in one way or another as do chapter-length works such as Nikolaeva (2015), Camp et al. (2018), etc.</div><div><br></div><div>If I can recommend three particular chapters within this literature that may prove relevant to the present discussion of examples (beyond Lehman's article suggested above) and of sounds, I'd suggest Weber (2007), Mithun (2014) and Rice (2014). Rice (2014) in particular surveys the treatment of sounds in grammar writing and she in fact suggests that: "<span style="font-family:Helvetica">One way of representing sounds more directly than transcription </span><span style="font-family:Helvetica">is through the use of spectrograms, pitch tracks, and the like." (p. 80) — although she admits that these are<font color="#000000"> "</font></span><font color="#000000"><span style="font-family:Helvetica">a representation of sound rather </span><span style="font-family:Helvetica">than sound itself." (p. 80).</span></font></div><div><br></div><div>My own understanding has always been that the examples we provide are illustrative and not necessarily probatory but that one should try to give representative examples in as much as possible (for example, by giving multiple examples of the same morpheme in different contexts). When it comes to the use of spectrograms, I'd say that the same rule applies but what I usually see—rather than multiple example spectrograms of the same sound—is some statement along the lines of "this is a typical realization of X". </div><div><br></div><div>In all cases, we have to take the author(s) at their word, though. However, if we turn to some of the descriptive phonetic literature (e.g. Ladefoged & Maddieson 1996 or the many illustrations of the IPA in JIPA and a number of descriptions of the sound systems of Native American languages in IJAL), it seems to me that spectrograms are used in much the same way as they are used in grammars. One important difference may be that these (not all but at least L&M 1996 and the JIPA illustrations) provide accompanying sound (sometimes only one repetition or item per sound but luckily not always) so that the reader can listen to these and inspect them themselves.</div><div><br></div><div>I think that perhaps that's where one could argue that things could change in grammar writing or descriptive writing more generally (that is, we should include the audio files that spectrograms are derived from or that the transcribed examples come from). But luckily for us, it seems (at least to me) that the field is moving in that direction as shown by the recent work on "reproducibility" and the emphasis to archive materials and to cite the source of the examples in a way that they are resolvable to the corpus (see for example Berez-Kroeker et al. 2017, Andreasson et al. 2019).</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Jorge</div><div><br></div><div><b><u>References:</u></b><br><ul><li>Ameka, Felix K., Alan Charles Dench, and Nicholas Evans, eds. 2006. <i>Catching Language: The Standing Challenge of Grammar Writing</i>. <i>Catching Language</i>. Trends in Linguistics. Studies and Monographs [TiLSM] 167. Berlin: De Gruyter Mouton. <a href="https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110197693"><span class="gmail-s1" style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(220,161,13)">https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110197693</span></a>.</li><li>Andreassen, Helene N., Andrea L. Berez-Kroeker, Lauren Collister, Philipp Conzett, Christopher Cox, Koenraad De Smedt, Bradley McDonnell, and Research Data Alliance Linguistic Data Interest Group. 2019. “Tromsø Recommendations for Citation of Research Data in Linguistics.” Helene N. Andreassen, Andrea L. Berez-Kroeker, Lauren Collister, Philipp Conzett, Christopher Cox, Koenraad De Smedt, Bradley McDonnell, and the. <a href="https://doi.org/10.15497/RDA00040"><span class="gmail-s1" style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(220,161,13)">https://doi.org/10.15497/RDA00040</span></a>.</li><li>Berez-Kroeker, Andrea L., Helene N. Andreassen, Lauren Gawne, Gary Holton, Susan Smythe Kung, Peter Pulsifer, Lauren Collister, The Data Citation and Attribution in Linguistics Group, and The Linguistics Data Interest Group. 2017. “The Austin Principles of Data Citation in Linguistics.” <a href="https://site.uit.no/linguisticsdatacitation/austinprinciples/"><span class="gmail-s1" style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(220,161,13)">https://site.uit.no/linguisticsdatacitation/austinprinciples/</span></a>.</li><li>Camp, Amber, Lyle Campbell, Victoria Chen, Nala H. Lee, Matt Magnuson, and Samantha Rarrick. 2018. “Writing Grammars of Endangered Languages.” In <i>The Oxford Handbook of Endangered Languages</i>, edited by Kenneth L. Rehg and Lyle Campbell. Oxford: Oxford University Press. <a href="https://www.doi.org/0.1093/oxfordhb/9780190610029.013.15"><span class="gmail-s1" style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(220,161,13)">https://www.doi.org/0.1093/oxfordhb/9780190610029.013.15</span></a>.</li><li>Ladefoged, Peter, and Ian Maddieson. 1996. <i>The Sounds of the World’s Languages</i>. Cambridge, MA: Wiley-Blackwell.</li><li>Mithun, Marianne. 2014. “The Data and the Examples: Comprehensiveness, Accuracy, and Sensitivity.” In <i>The Art and Practice of Grammar Writing</i>, edited by Toshihide Nakayama and Keren Rice, 25–52. Language Documentation & Conservation Special Publications 8. Hawai’i: University of Hawai‘i Press. <a href="https://nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/sp08-art-practice-grammar-writing/"><span class="gmail-s1" style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(220,161,13)">https://nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/sp08-art-practice-grammar-writing/</span></a>.</li><li>Nakayama, Toshihide, and Keren Rice, eds. 2014. <i>The Art and Practice of Grammar Writing</i>. Language Documentation & Conservation Special Publications 8. Hawai’i: University of Hawai‘i Press. <a href="https://nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/sp08-art-practice-grammar-writing/"><span class="gmail-s1" style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(220,161,13)">https://nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/sp08-art-practice-grammar-writing/</span></a>.</li><li>Nikolaeva, Irina. 2015. “Reference Grammars.” In <i>Syntax - Theory and Analysis</i>, edited by Tibor Kiss and Artemis Alexiadou, 3:2036–63. Handbücher Zur Sprach- Und Kommunikationswissenschaft / Handbooks of Linguistics and Communication Science (HSK) 42. Berlin; New York: Mouton De Gruyter. <a href="https://www.degruyter.com/view/serial/428493"><span class="gmail-s1" style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(220,161,13)">https://www.degruyter.com/view/serial/428493</span></a>.</li><li>Payne, Thomas Edward, and David Weber. 2007. <i>Perspectives on Grammar Writing</i> . Amsterdam; Philadelphia: John Benjamins Pub. Co.</li><li>Rice, Keren. 2014. “Sounds in Grammar Writing.” In <i>The Art and Practice of Grammar Writing</i>, edited by Toshihide Nakayama and Keren Rice, 69–90. Language Documentation & Conservation Special Publications 8. Hawai’i: University of Hawai‘i Press. <a href="https://nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/sp08-art-practice-grammar-writing/"><span class="gmail-s1" style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(220,161,13)">https://nflrc.hawaii.edu/ldc/sp08-art-practice-grammar-writing/</span></a>.</li><li>Weber, David J. 2006. “The Linguistic Example.” <i>Studies in Language</i> 30: 445–60. (later reprinted in Payne & Weber 2007)</li></ul></div><div><div class="gmail-csl-bib-body" style="line-height:1.35;margin-left:2em"><div class="gmail-csl-entry"><p class="gmail-p1" style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:"Helvetica Neue"">
</p><p class="gmail-p2" style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:13px;line-height:normal;font-family:"Helvetica Neue";min-height:15px"><br></p></div></div><div class="gmail-csl-bib-body" style="line-height:1.35;margin-left:2em">
<span class="gmail-Z3988" title="url_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fzotero.org%3A2&rft_id=urn%3Aisbn%3A978-3-11-019769-3&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.btitle=Catching%20language%3A%20The%20standing%20challenge%20of%20grammar%20writing&rft.place=Berlin&rft.publisher=De%20Gruyter%20Mouton&rft.series=Trends%20in%20Linguistics.%20Studies%20and%20Monographs%20%5BTiLSM%5D&rft.aufirst=Felix%20K.&rft.aulast=Ameka&rft.au=Felix%20K.%20Ameka&rft.au=Alan%20Charles%20Dench&rft.au=Nicholas%20Evans&rft.date=2006&rft.isbn=978-3-11-019769-3&rft.language=en"></span></div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><font color="#0b5394" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">-------------</font></div><div><font color="#0b5394" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">Jorge Emilio Rosés Labrada (<a href="https://www.su.ualberta.ca/services/thelanding/learn/pronouns/" target="_blank">He, him, his</a>)</font></div><div><font color="#0b5394" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">Associate Professor, Indigenous Language Sustainability</font></div><div><br></div><div><font color="#0b5394" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:x-small">4-22 Assiniboia Hall</font></div><div><font color="#0b5394" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:x-small">Department of Linguistics, </font><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:x-small;color:rgb(11,83,148)">University of Alberta</span><font color="#0b5394" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1"><br></font></div><div><font color="#0b5394" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">Tel: (+1) 780-492-5698</font></div><div><div><font color="#0b5394" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">Email: <a href="mailto:jrosesla@ualberta.ca" target="_blank">jrosesla@ualberta.ca</a> </font></div><div><font color="#0b5394" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1"><br></font></div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1"><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><font color="#0b5394"><b>The University of Alberta acknowledges that we are located on Treaty 6 territory, </b></font></span><b style="color:rgb(11,83,148)">and respects the history, languages, and cultures of the First Nations, Métis, Inuit, </b></font><b style="color:rgb(11,83,148)"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1">and all First Peoples of Canada, whose presence continues to enrich our institution.</font><br></b></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 4:50 AM Lidia Federica Mazzitelli <<a href="mailto:lfmazzitelli@gmail.com">lfmazzitelli@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>I also think that the discussion is really interesting, and have read (and wish to read more) everything with great interest! </div><div dir="auto">I am also working on the grammar of a previously undescribed and relatively endangered language, and the selection of examples from the corpus, as well as the balancing of elicitation Vs natural discourse data (especially in terms of negative evidence), is not as straightforward as I may have thought before.</div><div dir="auto">Thank you!</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Best, Lidia <br><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il mer 7 dic 2022, 22:39 Cat Butz <<a href="mailto:Cat.Butz@hhu.de" target="_blank">Cat.Butz@hhu.de</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Am 2022-12-05 09:48, schrieb Christian Lehmann:<br>
> I am not sure how many members of this list would wish to continue<br>
> this discussion.<br>
<br>
I, for one, am currently writing a grammar for my dissertation and am <br>
reading everything in this discussion with great interest. Thanks to <br>
everyone participating in this discussion for pointing out all those <br>
things.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
---<br>
Cat Butz (she)<br>
HHU Düsseldorf, general linguistics<br>
<br>
Cat Butz (sie)<br>
HHU Düsseldorf, allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> For something to count as proof in a science means that it corresponds<br>
> to a certain pattern of argumentation by the methodological standards<br>
> on which scientists have agreed. These patterns are different for<br>
> logical and for empirical sciences. I feel reminded of<br>
> <br>
> Kamlah, Wilhelm & Lorenzen, Paul 1967, _Logische Propädeutik.<br>
> Vorschule des vernünftigen Redens._ Mannheim: Bibliographisches<br>
> Institut (B.I.-Hochschultaschenbücher).<br>
> <br>
> translated as:<br>
> _Logical Propaedeutic: Pre-school of Reasonable Discourse._ Lanham,<br>
> Maryland: University Press of America, 1984.<br>
> <br>
> It is true that things are more complicated in empirical disciplines<br>
> because we have indeed to agree upon standards of validity. And to the<br>
> extent that it is impractical to counter-check everything that a<br>
> proponent assures his audience of, there is a portion of trust<br>
> involved in scientific discourse of an empirical discipline.<br>
> <br>
> Things work the Kamlah-Lorenzen way if a scientific claim is a simple<br>
> general statement of the kind 'in German, the definite article<br>
> precedes (rather than follows) the nominal group'. To prove it,<br>
> according to established standards of our discipline, it suffices for<br>
> me to produce a (probatory) example of a certain kind. If you do not<br>
> accept it, you may either operationalize my claim in such a way that<br>
> what I produced does not count as an example or to produce a<br>
> counter-example (of a postnominal definite article).<br>
> <br>
> The claim about the affix that you use as an example is more complex<br>
> since the issue appears to be what the correct analysis of a certain<br>
> occurrence is. This would have to be broken down into a set of simpler<br>
> statements in order to be tractable by Kamlah & Lorenzen.<br>
> <br>
> Best,<br>
> Christian<br>
> <br>
> Am 04.12.22 um 05:26 schrieb Juergen Bohnemeyer:<br>
> <br>
>> Dear Christian – I stand corrected! Thanks for the link, I think<br>
>> it’s great that you’ve looked into this issue. I sincerely wish<br>
>> more people had.<br>
>> <br>
>> And I think I agree with the policy you propose. But allow me to<br>
>> elaborate just a little.<br>
>> <br>
>> Now, at the risk of splitting hairs, I’m afraid from where I look<br>
>> at things, ‘probatory example’ is an oxymoron.<br>
>> <br>
>> There’s nothing an example could prove. In fact, there’s no such<br>
>> thing as proof in science. Proof only exists in math, including in<br>
>> logic.<br>
>> <br>
>> The closest equivalent to proof in science is hypothesis testing.<br>
>> <br>
>> Can an example ever be said to serve as a test of a hypothesis?<br>
>> <br>
>> Let’s say the author is aiming to adjudicate between two competing<br>
>> analyses. One predicts that a certain affix will appear in a certain<br>
>> environment, while the competing analysis predicts that it won’t.<br>
>> Then the author produces an example that instantiates the relevant<br>
>> context, and features or doesn’t feature the affix, thereby<br>
>> confirming one prediction or the other.<br>
>> <br>
>> Under such conditions, the example in question can assume a role<br>
>> similar to that of hypothesis testing in experimental science.<br>
>> <br>
>> But then immediately validity concerns analogous to those in<br>
>> experimentation will present themselves. Such as:<br>
>> <br>
>> * Internal validity: Was the example correctly analyzed and coded?<br>
>> Is the occurrence of the affix in question actually conditioned<br>
>> solely by the factors the competing hypotheses assume, or could it<br>
>> also be conditioned by other factors?<br>
>> * External validity: Is the example reproducible with other<br>
>> members of the speech community? Assuming there are any left!<br>
>> * Ecological validity: Does the example actually reflect the<br>
>> everyday linguistic behavior of speakers of the language<br>
>> (/doculect)? Assuming there still is everyday use by the members of<br>
>> the community!<br>
>> <br>
>> As I see it, the recommendations your webpage makes for documenting<br>
>> the conditions under which a ‘probatory’ example was recorded go<br>
>> some way toward addressing concerns with external and ecological<br>
>> validity.<br>
>> <br>
>> But the biggest challenge for addressing such concerns is in my view<br>
>> that we haven’t developed standards for assessing and reporting<br>
>> the empirical basis for our descriptions – the speakers we collect<br>
>> the data from, and how well they/it represent(s) the speech<br>
>> community, or which speech community it represents.<br>
>> <br>
>> Best -- Juergen<br>
>> <br>
>> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
>> Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
>> University at Buffalo<br>
>> <br>
>> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
>> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260<br>
>> Phone: (716) 645 0127<br>
>> Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
>> Email: <a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">jb77@buffalo.edu</a><br>
>> Web: <a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a> [1]<br>
>> <br>
>> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID<br>
>> 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)<br>
>> <br>
>> There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In<br>
>> (Leonard Cohen)<br>
>> <br>
>> --<br>
>> <br>
>> From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf<br>
>> of Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>><br>
>> Date: Friday, December 2, 2022 at 10:18 AM<br>
>> To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
>> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and<br>
>> for language comparison<br>
>> <br>
>> Dear Jürgen,<br>
>> <br>
>> to mitigate a bit your pessimist opinion of the methodological<br>
>> situation of our discipline, let me mention, as a contribution to<br>
>> the discussion you are requiring, my web page<br>
>> <br>
> <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc</a><br>
>> [2]<br>
>> which advocates a distinction between<br>
>> <br>
>> * a probatory example (which is data used as scientific evidence)<br>
>> * and an illustrative example (or pedagogical example, which is<br>
>> only meant to render a descriptive statement more concrete and,<br>
>> thus, to help understanding).<br>
>> <br>
>> Methodological standards for these two kinds of examples are<br>
>> completely different. On #1, I may recommend:<br>
>> <br>
>> Lehmann, Christian 2004, “Data in linguistics.” _The Linguistic<br>
>> Review_ 21(3/4):275-310. [3]<br>
>> <br>
>> Best,<br>
>> Christian<br>
>> <br>
>> --<br>
>> <br>
>> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
>> Rudolfstr. 4<br>
>> 99092 Erfurt<br>
>> Deutschland<br>
>> <br>
>> Tel.:<br>
>> <br>
>> +49/361/2113417<br>
>> <br>
>> E-Post:<br>
>> <br>
>> <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><br>
>> <br>
>> Web:<br>
>> <br>
>> <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a> [4]<br>
> <br>
> --<br>
> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
> Rudolfstr. 4<br>
> 99092 Erfurt<br>
> Deutschland<br>
> <br>
> Tel.:<br>
> +49/361/2113417<br>
> <br>
> E-Post:<br>
> <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><br>
> <br>
> Web:<br>
> <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Links:<br>
> ------<br>
> [1] <a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a><br>
> [2] <br>
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