<div dir="auto"><div>I also think that the discussion is really interesting, and have read (and wish to read more) everything with great interest! </div><div dir="auto">I am also working on the grammar of a previously undescribed and relatively endangered language, and the selection of examples from the corpus, as well as the balancing of elicitation Vs natural discourse data (especially in terms of negative evidence), is not as straightforward as I may have thought before.</div><div dir="auto">Thank you!</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Best, Lidia <br><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il mer 7 dic 2022, 22:39 Cat Butz <<a href="mailto:Cat.Butz@hhu.de">Cat.Butz@hhu.de</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Am 2022-12-05 09:48, schrieb Christian Lehmann:<br>
> I am not sure how many members of this list would wish to continue<br>
> this discussion.<br>
<br>
I, for one, am currently writing a grammar for my dissertation and am <br>
reading everything in this discussion with great interest. Thanks to <br>
everyone participating in this discussion for pointing out all those <br>
things.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
---<br>
Cat Butz (she)<br>
HHU Düsseldorf, general linguistics<br>
<br>
Cat Butz (sie)<br>
HHU Düsseldorf, allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> For something to count as proof in a science means that it corresponds<br>
> to a certain pattern of argumentation by the methodological standards<br>
> on which scientists have agreed. These patterns are different for<br>
> logical and for empirical sciences. I feel reminded of<br>
> <br>
> Kamlah, Wilhelm & Lorenzen, Paul 1967, _Logische Propädeutik.<br>
> Vorschule des vernünftigen Redens._ Mannheim: Bibliographisches<br>
> Institut (B.I.-Hochschultaschenbücher).<br>
> <br>
> translated as:<br>
> _Logical Propaedeutic: Pre-school of Reasonable Discourse._ Lanham,<br>
> Maryland: University Press of America, 1984.<br>
> <br>
> It is true that things are more complicated in empirical disciplines<br>
> because we have indeed to agree upon standards of validity. And to the<br>
> extent that it is impractical to counter-check everything that a<br>
> proponent assures his audience of, there is a portion of trust<br>
> involved in scientific discourse of an empirical discipline.<br>
> <br>
> Things work the Kamlah-Lorenzen way if a scientific claim is a simple<br>
> general statement of the kind 'in German, the definite article<br>
> precedes (rather than follows) the nominal group'. To prove it,<br>
> according to established standards of our discipline, it suffices for<br>
> me to produce a (probatory) example of a certain kind. If you do not<br>
> accept it, you may either operationalize my claim in such a way that<br>
> what I produced does not count as an example or to produce a<br>
> counter-example (of a postnominal definite article).<br>
> <br>
> The claim about the affix that you use as an example is more complex<br>
> since the issue appears to be what the correct analysis of a certain<br>
> occurrence is. This would have to be broken down into a set of simpler<br>
> statements in order to be tractable by Kamlah & Lorenzen.<br>
> <br>
> Best,<br>
> Christian<br>
> <br>
> Am 04.12.22 um 05:26 schrieb Juergen Bohnemeyer:<br>
> <br>
>> Dear Christian – I stand corrected! Thanks for the link, I think<br>
>> it’s great that you’ve looked into this issue. I sincerely wish<br>
>> more people had.<br>
>> <br>
>> And I think I agree with the policy you propose. But allow me to<br>
>> elaborate just a little.<br>
>> <br>
>> Now, at the risk of splitting hairs, I’m afraid from where I look<br>
>> at things, ‘probatory example’ is an oxymoron.<br>
>> <br>
>> There’s nothing an example could prove. In fact, there’s no such<br>
>> thing as proof in science. Proof only exists in math, including in<br>
>> logic.<br>
>> <br>
>> The closest equivalent to proof in science is hypothesis testing.<br>
>> <br>
>> Can an example ever be said to serve as a test of a hypothesis?<br>
>> <br>
>> Let’s say the author is aiming to adjudicate between two competing<br>
>> analyses. One predicts that a certain affix will appear in a certain<br>
>> environment, while the competing analysis predicts that it won’t.<br>
>> Then the author produces an example that instantiates the relevant<br>
>> context, and features or doesn’t feature the affix, thereby<br>
>> confirming one prediction or the other.<br>
>> <br>
>> Under such conditions, the example in question can assume a role<br>
>> similar to that of hypothesis testing in experimental science.<br>
>> <br>
>> But then immediately validity concerns analogous to those in<br>
>> experimentation will present themselves. Such as:<br>
>> <br>
>> * Internal validity: Was the example correctly analyzed and coded?<br>
>> Is the occurrence of the affix in question actually conditioned<br>
>> solely by the factors the competing hypotheses assume, or could it<br>
>> also be conditioned by other factors?<br>
>> * External validity: Is the example reproducible with other<br>
>> members of the speech community? Assuming there are any left!<br>
>> * Ecological validity: Does the example actually reflect the<br>
>> everyday linguistic behavior of speakers of the language<br>
>> (/doculect)? Assuming there still is everyday use by the members of<br>
>> the community!<br>
>> <br>
>> As I see it, the recommendations your webpage makes for documenting<br>
>> the conditions under which a ‘probatory’ example was recorded go<br>
>> some way toward addressing concerns with external and ecological<br>
>> validity.<br>
>> <br>
>> But the biggest challenge for addressing such concerns is in my view<br>
>> that we haven’t developed standards for assessing and reporting<br>
>> the empirical basis for our descriptions – the speakers we collect<br>
>> the data from, and how well they/it represent(s) the speech<br>
>> community, or which speech community it represents.<br>
>> <br>
>> Best -- Juergen<br>
>> <br>
>> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
>> Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
>> University at Buffalo<br>
>> <br>
>> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
>> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260<br>
>> Phone: (716) 645 0127<br>
>> Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
>> Email: <a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">jb77@buffalo.edu</a><br>
>> Web: <a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a> [1]<br>
>> <br>
>> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID<br>
>> 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)<br>
>> <br>
>> There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In<br>
>> (Leonard Cohen)<br>
>> <br>
>> --<br>
>> <br>
>> From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf<br>
>> of Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>><br>
>> Date: Friday, December 2, 2022 at 10:18 AM<br>
>> To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
>> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and<br>
>> for language comparison<br>
>> <br>
>> Dear Jürgen,<br>
>> <br>
>> to mitigate a bit your pessimist opinion of the methodological<br>
>> situation of our discipline, let me mention, as a contribution to<br>
>> the discussion you are requiring, my web page<br>
>> <br>
> <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc</a><br>
>> [2]<br>
>> which advocates a distinction between<br>
>> <br>
>> * a probatory example (which is data used as scientific evidence)<br>
>> * and an illustrative example (or pedagogical example, which is<br>
>> only meant to render a descriptive statement more concrete and,<br>
>> thus, to help understanding).<br>
>> <br>
>> Methodological standards for these two kinds of examples are<br>
>> completely different. On #1, I may recommend:<br>
>> <br>
>> Lehmann, Christian 2004, “Data in linguistics.” _The Linguistic<br>
>> Review_ 21(3/4):275-310. [3]<br>
>> <br>
>> Best,<br>
>> Christian<br>
>> <br>
>> --<br>
>> <br>
>> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
>> Rudolfstr. 4<br>
>> 99092 Erfurt<br>
>> Deutschland<br>
>> <br>
>> Tel.:<br>
>> <br>
>> +49/361/2113417<br>
>> <br>
>> E-Post:<br>
>> <br>
>> <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><br>
>> <br>
>> Web:<br>
>> <br>
>> <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a> [4]<br>
> <br>
> --<br>
> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
> Rudolfstr. 4<br>
> 99092 Erfurt<br>
> Deutschland<br>
> <br>
> Tel.:<br>
> +49/361/2113417<br>
> <br>
> E-Post:<br>
> <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><br>
> <br>
> Web:<br>
> <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Links:<br>
> ------<br>
> [1] <a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a><br>
> [2] <br>
> <a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VXi3oaBXPpkSUjObO9z%2Bg0ZPyvILV%2FkhMGG441T56L8%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VXi3oaBXPpkSUjObO9z%2Bg0ZPyvILV%2FkhMGG441T56L8%3D&reserved=0</a><br>
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</blockquote></div></div></div>