<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Hi Tom,</div></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">I
see what you mean with your 2nd question, but other examples do
contradict that assumption. What PFV+IRR does, is express the unexpectedness of the event wrt its (in)completion. So, these examples all involve some kind of an unexpected break in the middle of the (perfective) event. At the same time, this can lend itself to something akin to a frustrative interpretation, as you suggest. Also, y</span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">ou can get PFV+IRR w/ past reference too, for ex to complain that someone has failed to carry out some expected action.<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> But again, such uses (of PFV+IRR w/ non-future time reference), while perfectly good Chini, are infrequent. Peering inside a pfv event is a rather unusual thing, after all.<br></span></span></div><div dir="ltr"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">As for your other question, there is no easy answer, in part since there is more in the grammar to take into account. <br></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">M<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">ost
verbs in Chini discourse, are a combination of just two types of categories: PFV
or
IPFV and then: R or IRR. In the aspectual stem, both are obligatory (except one verb class that has a tense distinction, and not R/IRR). Unless further TAM info is available elsewhere in the clause , all further semantics = etic material, and so, purely interpretative. However, there are clear patterns and tendencies for different constructions (as in the PFV+IRR instances mentioned above).<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div>S<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">ince you are interested in temporal reference, the Chini verb doesn't code for tense (except that one verb class I mentioned). Otherwise, temporal information isn't encoded in the Chini verb , it's just part of the etic material. I should mention that aspect aside, there are no temporal restrictions at all for (realis or) irrealis; there are clear examples of both R and IRR for the full range of temporal possibilities. <br></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span><div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Semantic interpretations aside, as for the language-specific (encoded) meaning, in Chini, </span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">IRR</span> <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"></span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">is used to represent the</span> realization (or if you like, completion) of an event as <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">being</span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> </span>outside experience<span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"></span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">(something some linguists find descriptively
dissatisfying, but not me).</span></span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> <br></span></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">What the aspect contributes to the meaning then depends which aspectual construction is involved, whether it's an underived PFV or IPFV verb (all verbs in Chini are intrinsically PFV or IPFV) or whether it's derived via one of (six, 4 IPFV & 2 PFV) morphemes. The semantic contributions of those constructions is more than I could do justice to here. Also, different lexical verbs can exhibit quite a lot of diversity in how they interact with aspect and R/IRR. So, hard to make any generalizations here, in other words!<br></span></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">One generalization that does work, is that for PFV+IRR, there is in general a very wide range of interpretations wrt temporal reference , whereas for IPFV+IRR, temporal contexts are much more restricted. <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">If we just go with the most productive & frequent IPFV construction in combo w IRR marking, the T-A interpretations are limited to ongoing (present) phasal (esp often: inceptive) or present habitual, eg:<br></span></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">ku miag<span>ɨ yucmh'i<br></span></span></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">ku miag<span>ɨ</span> yu-cmh'-i <br></span></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">1sg betel.nut sell.pfv-ipfv-irr <br></span></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">'I'm selling/exchanging betel nut' OR: 'I (habitually) sell betel nut'<br></span></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Hope something here is helpful. Also side note that everything is very different under negation.</span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Blessings,<br></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Joseph</span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 6:07 AM <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Lingtyp mailing list submissions to<br>
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1. Re: Lingtyp Digest, Vol 99, Issue 7 (Tom Koss)<br>
2. Re: Lingtyp Digest, Vol 99, Issue 7 (Pier Marco Bertinetto)<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 10:39:17 +0000<br>
From: Tom Koss <<a href="mailto:Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be" target="_blank">Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be</a>><br>
To: Lingtyp list <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Lingtyp Digest, Vol 99, Issue 7<br>
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Hi Joseph,<br>
<br>
many thanks for the input. That irrealis verb forms can refer to both future possibilities and (remote) past habituals is something I have encountered in quite a few languages outside of Europe, especially in New Guinea and South America. So irrealis markers behave like typical non-present grams in some languages. That irrealis verb forms, irrespective of aspect, can refer to the ongoing present, on the other hand, is something new to me.<br>
<br>
Do you have any idea what the exact semantics of 'imperfective verb stem + irrealis suffix' constructions in Chini might be? Or, put differently, what could be the difference between these constructions and other ways of referring to the present with imperfective verbs (if there are any)?<br>
<br>
As for the one example you mentioned where the irrealis suffix was used on a perfective verb with present-time reference ("we're sleeping"), I was thinking: is there maybe irrealis marking because one cannot be sleeping in the strict sense and engage in a (conscious) conversation at the same time, which adds a sense of counterfactuality or frustrativity to the situation? Or are there other examples contradicting this assumption?<br>
<br>
All best,<br>
Tom<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Joseph Brooks <<a href="mailto:brooks.josephd@gmail.com" target="_blank">brooks.josephd@gmail.com</a>><br>
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Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Lingtyp Digest, Vol 99, Issue 7<br>
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Hi Tom,<br>
This possibility is found in Chini, a Ramu language of Papua New Guinea. I'll just mention a modal category and then irrealis.<br>
<br>
The modal suffix (-ru) attaches to the verb, it's used to express likelihoods ? things that might or are likely to happen in the future (eg, in warnings), or guesses about past events (eg in guesses about causation). It isn't ever used in present contexts ("X must be angry/hungry", etc). In those cases, other constructions are used.<br>
<br>
Some in this discussion addressed perfectivity so here is a twist on that. When used to inflect perfective verb stems, irrealis occurs almost exclusively in non-present utterances, to express the verbal event and/or its realization as being within the realm of the imaginary. So, things like past habituals outside the speaker's lived experience, or future possibilities and hypotheticals.<br>
<br>
Meanwhile for imperfective verb stems, irrealis marking occurs very often in present contexts, to express the action or state as ongoing. 'Squat' is imperfective in Chini so for ex, squat.ipfv-irr = 'is/are squatting'.<br>
<br>
A perfective verb form can be inflected for irrealis in present temporal contexts, but exceedingly rarely ? I think I've encountered only about a dozen or so such examples. Here the verbal event is expressed as being in medias res but in these cases there's more than just semantics going on. A fave example is once some guys were drunk and making a lot of noise in the middle of the night, and several people screamed out their houses, "We're sleeping!" ie anyi angg-i 1PL sleep.pfv-irr<br>
<br>
These rare examples seem to arise only when the speaker's attention is alerted or seized in some unusual way. Otherwise, the go-to construction for expressing actions in medias res, is to derive the perfective verb as an imperfective & mark it as irrealis: eg nyi anggu-mh'-i 3pl sleep.pfv-ipfv-irr 'they're sleeping'.<br>
<br>
Joseph<br>
<br>
On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 7:00 AM <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>> wrote:<br>
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1. Re: R: Non-present lexemes (Tom Koss)<br>
2. Re: R: Non-present lexemes (Christian Lehmann)<br>
3. Re: R: Non-present lexemes (Wiemer, Bjoern)<br>
4. Re: R: Non-present lexemes (Tom Koss)<br>
5. Re: spectrograms in linguistic description and for language<br>
comparison (Cat Butz)<br>
6. Re: spectrograms in linguistic description and for language<br>
comparison (Lidia Federica Mazzitelli)<br>
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Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 10:54:33 +0000<br>
From: Tom Koss <<a href="mailto:Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be" target="_blank">Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be" target="_blank">Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be</a>>><br>
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Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes<br>
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Dear all,<br>
<br>
many, many thanks for all the responses! I really appreciate it. I hope you forgive me that I cannot respond to every contributor personally.<br>
<br>
A few summarizing observations: this phenomenon seems to be much more widespread than I would have assumed, especially in Indo-European and Uralic languages. Also, non-present semantics seems to be associated mostly with adverbs and particles, while verbal paradigms referring to the non-present are much rarer, the only examples for the latter being the recency/remoteness markers of Piraha, the Macedonian aorist and the perfective aspect in Russian.<br>
<br>
Within the group of adverbs, I could make out three different types with more or less equal frequencies: adverbs indicating a short relative distance from the present ('recent past and near future'), adverbs indicating a great relative distance from the present ('remote past and remote future'), and adverbs indicating an absolute, in most cases intermediate distance from the present ('yesterday and tomorrow', or even 'day before yesterday and day after tomorrow'). For some adverbs, one of the two temporal interpretations (past or future) is more typical or considered to be ?the correct one? by prescriptivists.<br>
<br>
The fact that any clausal connective encoding some kind of sequentiality can, by definition, only refer to the non-present is something I hadn?t thought about, so thanks for drawing my attention to it. I maybe should have added to my definition that I am mainly looking for non-present semantics within simple clauses.<br>
<br>
Many thanks again! Please feel free to provide me with further examples in case something else comes to your mind.<br>
<br>
All best,<br>
Tom<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>> on behalf of Raffaele Simone <<a href="mailto:raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it" target="_blank">raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it" target="_blank">raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it</a>>><br>
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2022 5:03 PM<br>
To: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>>; <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>><br>
Subject: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes<br>
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Dear friends,<br>
<br>
the Italian adverb ora ?now? means both ?quite recently in the past? and ?shortly?.<br>
<br>
1. Ne abbiamo parlato ora<br>
<br>
We talked about it an instant ago<br>
<br>
1. Ne parleremo ora<br>
<br>
We shall talk about it in a moment<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Raffaele<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
==============<br>
<br>
Emeritus Professor, Universit? Roma Tre<br>
<br>
Hon C Lund University<br>
<br>
Membre de l'Acad?mie Royale de Belgique<br>
<br>
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<br>
Accademico (corrispondente) della Crusca<br>
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Prix de l'Institut de France-Fondation Bonnefous 2022<br>
<br>
===============<br>
<br>
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Da: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>> Per conto di David Gil<br>
Inviato: venerd? 2 dicembre 2022 20:07<br>
A: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Oggetto: Re: [Lingtyp] Non-present lexemes<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
In English, 'this evening', uttered at around 3 or 4 am, can, with a bit of effort, be understood as referring to either the previous evening or the following evening, depending on context, but not to the present time.<br>
<br>
In Hebrew, a similar but less marginal (ie. much more common) pattern is evident with halayla (DEF:night), which, when uttered during daytime, can refer to either the preceding night ('last night') or the following night ('tonight'), but obviously not to the present.<br>
<br>
The generalization seems to be that English this / Hebrew ha= plus part-of-day expression refers to the nearest appropriate part of day to the time of speech, with no inherent specification of relative (past, present or future) time. (With an added complication for English, which, instead of #this night, has either last night or tonight for past and future respectively.)<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
David Gil<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
<br>
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
<br>
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>><br>
<br>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
<br>
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302<br>
<br>
<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 12:05:41 +0100<br>
From: Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes<br>
Message-ID: <0d568841-69bb-3b9b-a2e0-cad7a9ad1c33@Uni-Erfurt.De><br>
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<br>
Dear Tom,<br>
<br>
the semantic property you are interested in may be shared by the<br>
perfective aspect of more languages. Another one is Cabecar (Chibchan).<br>
Similarly as in Russian (salvo errore), the perfective most of the time<br>
refers to past events, but reference to future events is possible. It<br>
seems that such a behavior of an aspect morpheme is not quite the same<br>
as the semantics of temporal adverbs that have been adduced. These<br>
latter do refer to points or periods of time, whereas the perfective<br>
views the event in question in its entirety, including the boundaries of<br>
its extension in time. This is straightforwardly possible for past<br>
events, but requires additional interpretive effort for future events.<br>
What I am saying is that the perfective aspect may not quite meet the<br>
requirement of your initial quest about "time reference".<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Christian<br>
--<br>
<br>
Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
Deutschland<br>
<br>
Tel.: +49/361/2113417<br>
E-Post: <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a>><br>
Web: <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a><<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XiuF36WL4PobYA1b7XeFN4OLvlZMxEim9Z6ivCsrl5M%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XiuF36WL4PobYA1b7XeFN4OLvlZMxEim9Z6ivCsrl5M%3D&reserved=0</a>><br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 11:29:37 +0000<br>
From: "Wiemer, Bjoern" <<a href="mailto:wiemerb@uni-mainz.de" target="_blank">wiemerb@uni-mainz.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:wiemerb@uni-mainz.de" target="_blank">wiemerb@uni-mainz.de</a>>><br>
To: Tom Koss <<a href="mailto:Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be" target="_blank">Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be" target="_blank">Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be</a>>>, Lingtyp list<br>
<<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:0c34d3e109c04545bc2e53ee81bd5a1b@uni-mainz.de" target="_blank">0c34d3e109c04545bc2e53ee81bd5a1b@uni-mainz.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:0c34d3e109c04545bc2e53ee81bd5a1b@uni-mainz.de" target="_blank">0c34d3e109c04545bc2e53ee81bd5a1b@uni-mainz.de</a>>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Dear Tom,<br>
thanks for this nice digest. However, on the spot, I'd like to make two comments.<br>
<br>
<br>
1. You can have sequentiality in simple clauses if you just consider items like Germ. dann 'then'. Speakers can just use this in reaction to some verbal exchange in which it has ben discussed how to act in some particular situation. A speaker may then (ditto!) say: Dann la? es uns doch so machen. (translating probably as sth. like 'Well, then let us proceed in this way'). This might be equivalent to "In diesem Fall / Wenn die Sache so ist,...." 'If this is the case... (let us do so and so)', and here dann might be argued to be sth. like a discourse connective to link up a verbal (re)action with what has been the topic of the verbal exchange. However, it is a simple clause. Note that it works not only with directive (hortative) speech acts (as above), but also with a (superficially) declarative like Dann machen wir es so, literally 'Then we (will) do it this way', but implying, of course, an indirect hortative (or even imperative) speech act (depending on the "power relations" betw<br>
een the interlocutors at the given point of discourse).<br>
2. I haven't quite understood why you refer to Macedonian aorist (it would be same for Bulgarian). This is simply a delimitative aspect for the past domain. Can it be used to refer to future events?<br>
<br>
And, by the way, why do you mention Russian (probably entire North Slavic) perfective present here? Do present tense forms of pfv. stems refer to past events? They may do so, indeed, if unlimited and irregular repetition (habituals) is what you have in mind. But in this case temporal reference seems to be just suspended, the only thing that counts is the boundedness of each particular occurrence of the denoted situation type (i.e. the lexical meaning of the verb). Is this what you have asked for?<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Bj?rn.<br>
<br>
From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>> On Behalf Of Tom Koss<br>
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 11:55 AM<br>
To: Lingtyp list <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
many, many thanks for all the responses! I really appreciate it. I hope you forgive me that I cannot respond to every contributor personally.<br>
<br>
A few summarizing observations: this phenomenon seems to be much more widespread than I would have assumed, especially in Indo-European and Uralic languages. Also, non-present semantics seems to be associated mostly with adverbs and particles, while verbal paradigms referring to the non-present are much rarer, the only examples for the latter being the recency/remoteness markers of Piraha, the Macedonian aorist and the perfective aspect in Russian.<br>
<br>
Within the group of adverbs, I could make out three different types with more or less equal frequencies: adverbs indicating a short relative distance from the present ('recent past and near future'), adverbs indicating a great relative distance from the present ('remote past and remote future'), and adverbs indicating an absolute, in most cases intermediate distance from the present ('yesterday and tomorrow', or even 'day before yesterday and day after tomorrow'). For some adverbs, one of the two temporal interpretations (past or future) is more typical or considered to be 'the correct one' by prescriptivists.<br>
<br>
The fact that any clausal connective encoding some kind of sequentiality can, by definition, only refer to the non-present is something I hadn't thought about, so thanks for drawing my attention to it. I maybe should have added to my definition that I am mainly looking for non-present semantics within simple clauses.<br>
<br>
Many thanks again! Please feel free to provide me with further examples in case something else comes to your mind.<br>
<br>
All best,<br>
Tom<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>>> on behalf of Raffaele Simone <<a href="mailto:raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it" target="_blank">raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it" target="_blank">raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it</a>><mailto:<a href="mailto:raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it" target="_blank">raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it" target="_blank">raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it</a>>>><br>
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2022 5:03 PM<br>
To: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>>>; <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>>><br>
Subject: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes<br>
<br>
CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear friends,<br>
<br>
the Italian adverb ora "now" means both "quite recently in the past" and "shortly".<br>
<br>
1. Ne abbiamo parlato ora<br>
<br>
We talked about it an instant ago<br>
<br>
1. Ne parleremo ora<br>
<br>
We shall talk about it in a moment<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Raffaele<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
==============<br>
<br>
Emeritus Professor, Universit? Roma Tre<br>
<br>
Hon C Lund University<br>
<br>
Membre de l'Acad?mie Royale de Belgique<br>
<br>
Chevalier de l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres de France<br>
<br>
Accademico (corrispondente) della Crusca<br>
<br>
Prix de l'Institut de France-Fondation Bonnefous 2022<br>
<br>
===============<br>
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Da: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>>> Per conto di David Gil<br>
Inviato: venerd? 2 dicembre 2022 20:07<br>
A: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>><br>
Oggetto: Re: [Lingtyp] Non-present lexemes<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
In English, 'this evening', uttered at around 3 or 4 am, can, with a bit of effort, be understood as referring to either the previous evening or the following evening, depending on context, but not to the present time.<br>
<br>
In Hebrew, a similar but less marginal (ie. much more common) pattern is evident with halayla (DEF:night), which, when uttered during daytime, can refer to either the preceding night ('last night') or the following night ('tonight'), but obviously not to the present.<br>
<br>
The generalization seems to be that English this / Hebrew ha= plus part-of-day expression refers to the nearest appropriate part of day to the time of speech, with no inherent specification of relative (past, present or future) time. (With an added complication for English, which, instead of #this night, has either last night or tonight for past and future respectively.)<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
David Gil<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
<br>
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
<br>
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
<br>
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>><br>
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Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
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Message: 4<br>
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 11:31:32 +0000<br>
From: Tom Koss <<a href="mailto:Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be" target="_blank">Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be" target="_blank">Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be</a>>><br>
To: Lingtyp list <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes<br>
Message-ID:<br>
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<br>
Hi Christian,<br>
<br>
very true - the perfective aspect does not refer to the non-present in itself, its semantics simply clashes with a present interpretation in most instances. This is also illustrated by the fact that in some languages (e.g., Koiari [Trans-New Guinea]), the perfective can express, or is even the default way to express present-time reference on stative verbs. Whether an utterance like "s/he knows (right now)" should then actually be interpreted as "s/he has understood (in the past)" is yet another question, of course..<br>
<br>
So indeed, I might need to remove Slavic perfectives/aorists from the list of non-present grams. Thanks for pointing that out.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Tom<br>
________________________________<br>
From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>> on behalf of Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>>><br>
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 12:05 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes<br>
<br>
<br>
CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.<br>
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<br>
Dear Tom,<br>
<br>
the semantic property you are interested in may be shared by the perfective aspect of more languages. Another one is Cabecar (Chibchan). Similarly as in Russian (salvo errore), the perfective most of the time refers to past events, but reference to future events is possible. It seems that such a behavior of an aspect morpheme is not quite the same as the semantics of temporal adverbs that have been adduced. These latter do refer to points or periods of time, whereas the perfective views the event in question in its entirety, including the boundaries of its extension in time. This is straightforwardly possible for past events, but requires additional interpretive effort for future events. What I am saying is that the perfective aspect may not quite meet the requirement of your initial quest about "time reference".<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Christian<br>
--<br>
<br>
Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
Deutschland<br>
<br>
Tel.: +49/361/2113417<br>
E-Post: <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a>><mailto:<a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a>>><br>
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<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 12:39:57 +0100<br>
From: Cat Butz <<a href="mailto:Cat.Butz@hhu.de" target="_blank">Cat.Butz@hhu.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:Cat.Butz@hhu.de" target="_blank">Cat.Butz@hhu.de</a>>><br>
To: Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>>><br>
Cc: Juergen Bohnemeyer <<a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">jb77@buffalo.edu</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">jb77@buffalo.edu</a>>>,<br>
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and for<br>
language comparison<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:5317c939951f34d241177b69bc6c6580@hhu.de" target="_blank">5317c939951f34d241177b69bc6c6580@hhu.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:5317c939951f34d241177b69bc6c6580@hhu.de" target="_blank">5317c939951f34d241177b69bc6c6580@hhu.de</a>>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
Am 2022-12-05 09:48, schrieb Christian Lehmann:<br>
> I am not sure how many members of this list would wish to continue<br>
> this discussion.<br>
<br>
I, for one, am currently writing a grammar for my dissertation and am<br>
reading everything in this discussion with great interest. Thanks to<br>
everyone participating in this discussion for pointing out all those<br>
things.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
---<br>
Cat Butz (she)<br>
HHU D?sseldorf, general linguistics<br>
<br>
Cat Butz (sie)<br>
HHU D?sseldorf, allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> For something to count as proof in a science means that it corresponds<br>
> to a certain pattern of argumentation by the methodological standards<br>
> on which scientists have agreed. These patterns are different for<br>
> logical and for empirical sciences. I feel reminded of<br>
><br>
> Kamlah, Wilhelm & Lorenzen, Paul 1967, _Logische Prop?deutik.<br>
> Vorschule des vern?nftigen Redens._ Mannheim: Bibliographisches<br>
> Institut (B.I.-Hochschultaschenb?cher).<br>
><br>
> translated as:<br>
> _Logical Propaedeutic: Pre-school of Reasonable Discourse._ Lanham,<br>
> Maryland: University Press of America, 1984.<br>
><br>
> It is true that things are more complicated in empirical disciplines<br>
> because we have indeed to agree upon standards of validity. And to the<br>
> extent that it is impractical to counter-check everything that a<br>
> proponent assures his audience of, there is a portion of trust<br>
> involved in scientific discourse of an empirical discipline.<br>
><br>
> Things work the Kamlah-Lorenzen way if a scientific claim is a simple<br>
> general statement of the kind 'in German, the definite article<br>
> precedes (rather than follows) the nominal group'. To prove it,<br>
> according to established standards of our discipline, it suffices for<br>
> me to produce a (probatory) example of a certain kind. If you do not<br>
> accept it, you may either operationalize my claim in such a way that<br>
> what I produced does not count as an example or to produce a<br>
> counter-example (of a postnominal definite article).<br>
><br>
> The claim about the affix that you use as an example is more complex<br>
> since the issue appears to be what the correct analysis of a certain<br>
> occurrence is. This would have to be broken down into a set of simpler<br>
> statements in order to be tractable by Kamlah & Lorenzen.<br>
><br>
> Best,<br>
> Christian<br>
><br>
> Am 04.12.22 um 05:26 schrieb Juergen Bohnemeyer:<br>
><br>
>> Dear Christian ? I stand corrected! Thanks for the link, I think<br>
>> it?s great that you?ve looked into this issue. I sincerely wish<br>
>> more people had.<br>
>><br>
>> And I think I agree with the policy you propose. But allow me to<br>
>> elaborate just a little.<br>
>><br>
>> Now, at the risk of splitting hairs, I?m afraid from where I look<br>
>> at things, ?probatory example? is an oxymoron.<br>
>><br>
>> There?s nothing an example could prove. In fact, there?s no such<br>
>> thing as proof in science. Proof only exists in math, including in<br>
>> logic.<br>
>><br>
>> The closest equivalent to proof in science is hypothesis testing.<br>
>><br>
>> Can an example ever be said to serve as a test of a hypothesis?<br>
>><br>
>> Let?s say the author is aiming to adjudicate between two competing<br>
>> analyses. One predicts that a certain affix will appear in a certain<br>
>> environment, while the competing analysis predicts that it won?t.<br>
>> Then the author produces an example that instantiates the relevant<br>
>> context, and features or doesn?t feature the affix, thereby<br>
>> confirming one prediction or the other.<br>
>><br>
>> Under such conditions, the example in question can assume a role<br>
>> similar to that of hypothesis testing in experimental science.<br>
>><br>
>> But then immediately validity concerns analogous to those in<br>
>> experimentation will present themselves. Such as:<br>
>><br>
>> * Internal validity: Was the example correctly analyzed and coded?<br>
>> Is the occurrence of the affix in question actually conditioned<br>
>> solely by the factors the competing hypotheses assume, or could it<br>
>> also be conditioned by other factors?<br>
>> * External validity: Is the example reproducible with other<br>
>> members of the speech community? Assuming there are any left!<br>
>> * Ecological validity: Does the example actually reflect the<br>
>> everyday linguistic behavior of speakers of the language<br>
>> (/doculect)? Assuming there still is everyday use by the members of<br>
>> the community!<br>
>><br>
>> As I see it, the recommendations your webpage makes for documenting<br>
>> the conditions under which a ?probatory? example was recorded go<br>
>> some way toward addressing concerns with external and ecological<br>
>> validity.<br>
>><br>
>> But the biggest challenge for addressing such concerns is in my view<br>
>> that we haven?t developed standards for assessing and reporting<br>
>> the empirical basis for our descriptions ? the speakers we collect<br>
>> the data from, and how well they/it represent(s) the speech<br>
>> community, or which speech community it represents.<br>
>><br>
>> Best -- Juergen<br>
>><br>
>> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
>> Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
>> University at Buffalo<br>
>><br>
>> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
>> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260<br>
>> Phone: (716) 645 0127<br>
>> Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
>> Email: <a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">jb77@buffalo.edu</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">jb77@buffalo.edu</a>><br>
>> Web: <a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a><<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acsu.buffalo.edu%2F~jb77%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xPZme0qAi6%2Bpu%2FzRMF3b5sKeUwnOFEZCMz6MLNUudiQ%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acsu.buffalo.edu%2F~jb77%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xPZme0qAi6%2Bpu%2FzRMF3b5sKeUwnOFEZCMz6MLNUudiQ%3D&reserved=0</a>> [1]<br>
>><br>
>> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID<br>
>> 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)<br>
>><br>
>> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In<br>
>> (Leonard Cohen)<br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>><br>
>> From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>> on behalf<br>
>> of Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>>><br>
>> Date: Friday, December 2, 2022 at 10:18 AM<br>
>> To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
>> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and<br>
>> for language comparison<br>
>><br>
>> Dear J?rgen,<br>
>><br>
>> to mitigate a bit your pessimist opinion of the methodological<br>
>> situation of our discipline, let me mention, as a contribution to<br>
>> the discussion you are requiring, my web page<br>
>><br>
> <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc</a><<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fgL7dn9xXeRHspW8cQ5ktQC%2FqwJMRS5YusuHL9aOWjQ%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fgL7dn9xXeRHspW8cQ5ktQC%2FqwJMRS5YusuHL9aOWjQ%3D&reserved=0</a>><br>
>> [2]<br>
>> which advocates a distinction between<br>
>><br>
>> * a probatory example (which is data used as scientific evidence)<br>
>> * and an illustrative example (or pedagogical example, which is<br>
>> only meant to render a descriptive statement more concrete and,<br>
>> thus, to help understanding).<br>
>><br>
>> Methodological standards for these two kinds of examples are<br>
>> completely different. On #1, I may recommend:<br>
>><br>
>> Lehmann, Christian 2004, ?Data in linguistics.? _The Linguistic<br>
>> Review_ 21(3/4):275-310. [3]<br>
>><br>
>> Best,<br>
>> Christian<br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>><br>
>> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
>> Rudolfstr. 4<br>
>> 99092 Erfurt<br>
>> Deutschland<br>
>><br>
>> Tel.:<br>
>><br>
>> +49/361/2113417<br>
>><br>
>> E-Post:<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a>><br>
>><br>
>> Web:<br>
>><br>
>> <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a><<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XiuF36WL4PobYA1b7XeFN4OLvlZMxEim9Z6ivCsrl5M%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XiuF36WL4PobYA1b7XeFN4OLvlZMxEim9Z6ivCsrl5M%3D&reserved=0</a>> [4]<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
> Rudolfstr. 4<br>
> 99092 Erfurt<br>
> Deutschland<br>
><br>
> Tel.:<br>
> +49/361/2113417<br>
><br>
> E-Post:<br>
> <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a>><br>
><br>
> Web:<br>
> <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a><<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XiuF36WL4PobYA1b7XeFN4OLvlZMxEim9Z6ivCsrl5M%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XiuF36WL4PobYA1b7XeFN4OLvlZMxEim9Z6ivCsrl5M%3D&reserved=0</a>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Links:<br>
> ------<br>
> [1] <a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a><<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acsu.buffalo.edu%2F~jb77%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xPZme0qAi6%2Bpu%2FzRMF3b5sKeUwnOFEZCMz6MLNUudiQ%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acsu.buffalo.edu%2F~jb77%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xPZme0qAi6%2Bpu%2FzRMF3b5sKeUwnOFEZCMz6MLNUudiQ%3D&reserved=0</a>><br>
> [2]<br>
> <a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VXi3oaBXPpkSUjObO9z%2Bg0ZPyvILV%2FkhMGG441T56L8%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VXi3oaBXPpkSUjObO9z%2Bg0ZPyvILV%2FkhMGG441T56L8%3D&reserved=0</a><<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fgL7dn9xXeRHspW8cQ5ktQC%2FqwJMRS5YusuHL9aOWjQ%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fgL7dn9xXeRHspW8cQ5ktQC%2FqwJMRS5YusuHL9aOWjQ%3D&reserved=0</a>><br>
> [3]<br>
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> [4]<br>
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 22:50:02 +1100<br>
From: Lidia Federica Mazzitelli <<a href="mailto:lfmazzitelli@gmail.com" target="_blank">lfmazzitelli@gmail.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lfmazzitelli@gmail.com" target="_blank">lfmazzitelli@gmail.com</a>>><br>
To: Cat Butz <<a href="mailto:Cat.Butz@hhu.de" target="_blank">Cat.Butz@hhu.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:Cat.Butz@hhu.de" target="_blank">Cat.Butz@hhu.de</a>>><br>
Cc: Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>>>,<br>
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and for<br>
language comparison<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CABZ3858K24jfoOnE03UJjb7L3%2B28npJM43%2BWh2i7mRtbQ3Hxzg@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CABZ3858K24jfoOnE03UJjb7L3+28npJM43+Wh2i7mRtbQ3Hxzg@mail.gmail.com</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:CABZ3858K24jfoOnE03UJjb7L3%252B28npJM43%252BWh2i7mRtbQ3Hxzg@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CABZ3858K24jfoOnE03UJjb7L3%2B28npJM43%2BWh2i7mRtbQ3Hxzg@mail.gmail.com</a>>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
I also think that the discussion is really interesting, and have read (and<br>
wish to read more) everything with great interest!<br>
I am also working on the grammar of a previously undescribed and relatively<br>
endangered language, and the selection of examples from the corpus, as well<br>
as the balancing of elicitation Vs natural discourse data (especially in<br>
terms of negative evidence), is not as straightforward as I may have<br>
thought before.<br>
Thank you!<br>
<br>
Best, Lidia<br>
<br>
Il mer 7 dic 2022, 22:39 Cat Butz <<a href="mailto:Cat.Butz@hhu.de" target="_blank">Cat.Butz@hhu.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:Cat.Butz@hhu.de" target="_blank">Cat.Butz@hhu.de</a>>> ha scritto:<br>
<br>
> Am 2022-12-05 09:48, schrieb Christian Lehmann:<br>
> > I am not sure how many members of this list would wish to continue<br>
> > this discussion.<br>
><br>
> I, for one, am currently writing a grammar for my dissertation and am<br>
> reading everything in this discussion with great interest. Thanks to<br>
> everyone participating in this discussion for pointing out all those<br>
> things.<br>
><br>
> Best,<br>
> ---<br>
> Cat Butz (she)<br>
> HHU D?sseldorf, general linguistics<br>
><br>
> Cat Butz (sie)<br>
> HHU D?sseldorf, allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> > For something to count as proof in a science means that it corresponds<br>
> > to a certain pattern of argumentation by the methodological standards<br>
> > on which scientists have agreed. These patterns are different for<br>
> > logical and for empirical sciences. I feel reminded of<br>
> ><br>
> > Kamlah, Wilhelm & Lorenzen, Paul 1967, _Logische Prop?deutik.<br>
> > Vorschule des vern?nftigen Redens._ Mannheim: Bibliographisches<br>
> > Institut (B.I.-Hochschultaschenb?cher).<br>
> ><br>
> > translated as:<br>
> > _Logical Propaedeutic: Pre-school of Reasonable Discourse._ Lanham,<br>
> > Maryland: University Press of America, 1984.<br>
> ><br>
> > It is true that things are more complicated in empirical disciplines<br>
> > because we have indeed to agree upon standards of validity. And to the<br>
> > extent that it is impractical to counter-check everything that a<br>
> > proponent assures his audience of, there is a portion of trust<br>
> > involved in scientific discourse of an empirical discipline.<br>
> ><br>
> > Things work the Kamlah-Lorenzen way if a scientific claim is a simple<br>
> > general statement of the kind 'in German, the definite article<br>
> > precedes (rather than follows) the nominal group'. To prove it,<br>
> > according to established standards of our discipline, it suffices for<br>
> > me to produce a (probatory) example of a certain kind. If you do not<br>
> > accept it, you may either operationalize my claim in such a way that<br>
> > what I produced does not count as an example or to produce a<br>
> > counter-example (of a postnominal definite article).<br>
> ><br>
> > The claim about the affix that you use as an example is more complex<br>
> > since the issue appears to be what the correct analysis of a certain<br>
> > occurrence is. This would have to be broken down into a set of simpler<br>
> > statements in order to be tractable by Kamlah & Lorenzen.<br>
> ><br>
> > Best,<br>
> > Christian<br>
> ><br>
> > Am 04.12.22 um 05:26 schrieb Juergen Bohnemeyer:<br>
> ><br>
> >> Dear Christian ? I stand corrected! Thanks for the link, I think<br>
> >> it?s great that you?ve looked into this issue. I sincerely wish<br>
> >> more people had.<br>
> >><br>
> >> And I think I agree with the policy you propose. But allow me to<br>
> >> elaborate just a little.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Now, at the risk of splitting hairs, I?m afraid from where I look<br>
> >> at things, ?probatory example? is an oxymoron.<br>
> >><br>
> >> There?s nothing an example could prove. In fact, there?s no such<br>
> >> thing as proof in science. Proof only exists in math, including in<br>
> >> logic.<br>
> >><br>
> >> The closest equivalent to proof in science is hypothesis testing.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Can an example ever be said to serve as a test of a hypothesis?<br>
> >><br>
> >> Let?s say the author is aiming to adjudicate between two competing<br>
> >> analyses. One predicts that a certain affix will appear in a certain<br>
> >> environment, while the competing analysis predicts that it won?t.<br>
> >> Then the author produces an example that instantiates the relevant<br>
> >> context, and features or doesn?t feature the affix, thereby<br>
> >> confirming one prediction or the other.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Under such conditions, the example in question can assume a role<br>
> >> similar to that of hypothesis testing in experimental science.<br>
> >><br>
> >> But then immediately validity concerns analogous to those in<br>
> >> experimentation will present themselves. Such as:<br>
> >><br>
> >> * Internal validity: Was the example correctly analyzed and coded?<br>
> >> Is the occurrence of the affix in question actually conditioned<br>
> >> solely by the factors the competing hypotheses assume, or could it<br>
> >> also be conditioned by other factors?<br>
> >> * External validity: Is the example reproducible with other<br>
> >> members of the speech community? Assuming there are any left!<br>
> >> * Ecological validity: Does the example actually reflect the<br>
> >> everyday linguistic behavior of speakers of the language<br>
> >> (/doculect)? Assuming there still is everyday use by the members of<br>
> >> the community!<br>
> >><br>
> >> As I see it, the recommendations your webpage makes for documenting<br>
> >> the conditions under which a ?probatory? example was recorded go<br>
> >> some way toward addressing concerns with external and ecological<br>
> >> validity.<br>
> >><br>
> >> But the biggest challenge for addressing such concerns is in my view<br>
> >> that we haven?t developed standards for assessing and reporting<br>
> >> the empirical basis for our descriptions ? the speakers we collect<br>
> >> the data from, and how well they/it represent(s) the speech<br>
> >> community, or which speech community it represents.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Best -- Juergen<br>
> >><br>
> >> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
> >> Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
> >> University at Buffalo<br>
> >><br>
> >> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
> >> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260<br>
> >> Phone: (716) 645 0127<br>
> >> Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
> >> Email: <a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">jb77@buffalo.edu</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">jb77@buffalo.edu</a>><br>
> >> Web: <a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a><<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acsu.buffalo.edu%2F~jb77%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xPZme0qAi6%2Bpu%2FzRMF3b5sKeUwnOFEZCMz6MLNUudiQ%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acsu.buffalo.edu%2F~jb77%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xPZme0qAi6%2Bpu%2FzRMF3b5sKeUwnOFEZCMz6MLNUudiQ%3D&reserved=0</a>> [1]<br>
> >><br>
> >> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID<br>
> >> 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)<br>
> >><br>
> >> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In<br>
> >> (Leonard Cohen)<br>
> >><br>
> >> --<br>
> >><br>
> >> From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>> on behalf<br>
> >> of Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>>><br>
> >> Date: Friday, December 2, 2022 at 10:18 AM<br>
> >> To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
> >> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>><br>
> >> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and<br>
> >> for language comparison<br>
> >><br>
> >> Dear J?rgen,<br>
> >><br>
> >> to mitigate a bit your pessimist opinion of the methodological<br>
> >> situation of our discipline, let me mention, as a contribution to<br>
> >> the discussion you are requiring, my web page<br>
> >><br>
> ><br>
> <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc</a><<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fgL7dn9xXeRHspW8cQ5ktQC%2FqwJMRS5YusuHL9aOWjQ%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fgL7dn9xXeRHspW8cQ5ktQC%2FqwJMRS5YusuHL9aOWjQ%3D&reserved=0</a>><br>
> >> [2]<br>
> >> which advocates a distinction between<br>
> >><br>
> >> * a probatory example (which is data used as scientific evidence)<br>
> >> * and an illustrative example (or pedagogical example, which is<br>
> >> only meant to render a descriptive statement more concrete and,<br>
> >> thus, to help understanding).<br>
> >><br>
> >> Methodological standards for these two kinds of examples are<br>
> >> completely different. On #1, I may recommend:<br>
> >><br>
> >> Lehmann, Christian 2004, ?Data in linguistics.? _The Linguistic<br>
> >> Review_ 21(3/4):275-310. [3]<br>
> >><br>
> >> Best,<br>
> >> Christian<br>
> >><br>
> >> --<br>
> >><br>
> >> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
> >> Rudolfstr. 4<br>
> >> 99092 Erfurt<br>
> >> Deutschland<br>
> >><br>
> >> Tel.:<br>
> >><br>
> >> +49/361/2113417<br>
> >><br>
> >> E-Post:<br>
> >><br>
> >> <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a>><br>
> >><br>
> >> Web:<br>
> >><br>
> >> <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a><<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XiuF36WL4PobYA1b7XeFN4OLvlZMxEim9Z6ivCsrl5M%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XiuF36WL4PobYA1b7XeFN4OLvlZMxEim9Z6ivCsrl5M%3D&reserved=0</a>> [4]<br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
> > Rudolfstr. 4<br>
> > 99092 Erfurt<br>
> > Deutschland<br>
> ><br>
> > Tel.:<br>
> > +49/361/2113417<br>
> ><br>
> > E-Post:<br>
> > <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a>><br>
> ><br>
> > Web:<br>
> > <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a><<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XiuF36WL4PobYA1b7XeFN4OLvlZMxEim9Z6ivCsrl5M%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XiuF36WL4PobYA1b7XeFN4OLvlZMxEim9Z6ivCsrl5M%3D&reserved=0</a>><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Links:<br>
> > ------<br>
> > [1] <a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a><<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acsu.buffalo.edu%2F~jb77%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633863007159%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=eEb0IMT4Lq8fkhDn8w6KYNp4s0F%2BHmEJor8UcEi8Okk%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acsu.buffalo.edu%2F~jb77%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633863007159%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=eEb0IMT4Lq8fkhDn8w6KYNp4s0F%2BHmEJor8UcEi8Okk%3D&reserved=0</a>><br>
> > [2]<br>
> ><br>
> <a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VXi3oaBXPpkSUjObO9z%2Bg0ZPyvILV%2FkhMGG441T56L8%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VXi3oaBXPpkSUjObO9z%2Bg0ZPyvILV%2FkhMGG441T56L8%3D&reserved=0</a><<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633863007159%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=X00I%2B5F5Tv%2F%2BFNBx6IQdi7t4YRcFFG3ssQDYSA29BCU%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633863007159%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=X00I%2B5F5Tv%2F%2BFNBx6IQdi7t4YRcFFG3ssQDYSA29BCU%3D&reserved=0</a>><br>
> > [3]<br>
> ><br>
> <a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F249931781_Data_in_linguistics&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UI%2BLyj4NP2pzzyidgM3Z5nh72VJP%2FHCQl1UjmMWsRRI%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F249931781_Data_in_linguistics&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UI%2BLyj4NP2pzzyidgM3Z5nh72VJP%2FHCQl1UjmMWsRRI%3D&reserved=0</a><<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F249931781_Data_in_linguistics&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633863007159%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=k4j4gyY1DNEOpF%2FHt%2Bpt6OFaJkQS1ZEJ4aZyELQQ%2BxI%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F249931781_Data_in_linguistics&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633863007159%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=k4j4gyY1DNEOpF%2FHt%2Bpt6OFaJkQS1ZEJ4aZyELQQ%2BxI%3D&reserved=0</a>><br>
> > [4]<br>
> ><br>
> <a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HAeLu5NMoRkuDSO7t0wiYIxRVXp7%2FCh1yAPK8ixnqR0%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HAeLu5NMoRkuDSO7t0wiYIxRVXp7%2FCh1yAPK8ixnqR0%3D&reserved=0</a><<a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633863007159%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Q%2FG24NNTAOhOYPhxNe7WkQLfK3pMq4nkK%2BS7g55UFCE%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633863007159%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Q%2FG24NNTAOhOYPhxNe7WkQLfK3pMq4nkK%2BS7g55UFCE%3D&reserved=0</a>><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Lingtyp mailing list<br>
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Subject: Digest Footer<br>
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End of Lingtyp Digest, Vol 99, Issue 7<br>
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<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 12:07:09 +0100<br>
From: Pier Marco Bertinetto <<a href="mailto:piermarco.bertinetto@sns.it" target="_blank">piermarco.bertinetto@sns.it</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Lingtyp Digest, Vol 99, Issue 7<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CABoVV59MeTehDnvZLEF-9FiFHtP0F9g=vYTE1qi=<a href="mailto:KF%2BBRYG1sw@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">KF+BRYG1sw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Just a question of method:<br>
Why should a mail referring to a discussion on<br>
"non-present lexemes"<br>
have<br>
"Lyngtyp Digest, Vol 99, Issue 7"<br>
as subject?<br>
It makes things difficult for anybody willing to find, later on, all emails<br>
of this exchange.<br>
Best<br>
Pier Marco<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Il giorno gio 8 dic 2022 alle ore 03:29 Joseph Brooks <<br>
<a href="mailto:brooks.josephd@gmail.com" target="_blank">brooks.josephd@gmail.com</a>> ha scritto:<br>
<br>
> Hi Tom,<br>
> This possibility is found in Chini, a Ramu language of Papua New Guinea.<br>
> I'll just mention a modal category and then irrealis.<br>
><br>
> The modal suffix (-ru) attaches to the verb, it's used to express<br>
> likelihoods ? things that might or are likely to happen in the future (eg,<br>
> in warnings), or guesses about past events (eg in guesses about causation).<br>
> It isn't ever used in present contexts ("X must be angry/hungry", etc). In<br>
> those cases, other constructions are used.<br>
><br>
> Some in this discussion addressed perfectivity so here is a twist on that.<br>
> When used to inflect perfective verb stems, irrealis occurs almost<br>
> exclusively in non-present utterances, to express the verbal event and/or<br>
> its realization as being within the realm of the imaginary. So, things like<br>
> past habituals outside the speaker's lived experience, or future<br>
> possibilities and hypotheticals.<br>
><br>
> Meanwhile for imperfective verb stems, irrealis marking occurs very often<br>
> in present contexts, to express the action or state as ongoing. 'Squat' is<br>
> imperfective in Chini so for ex, squat.ipfv-irr = 'is/are squatting'.<br>
><br>
> A perfective verb form can be inflected for irrealis in present temporal<br>
> contexts, but exceedingly rarely ? I think I've encountered only about a<br>
> dozen or so such examples. Here the verbal event is expressed as being in<br>
> medias res but in these cases there's more than just semantics going on. A<br>
> fave example is once some guys were drunk and making a lot of noise in the<br>
> middle of the night, and several people screamed out their houses, "We're<br>
> sleeping!" ie anyi angg-i 1PL sleep.pfv-irr<br>
><br>
> These rare examples seem to arise only when the speaker's attention is<br>
> alerted or seized in some unusual way. Otherwise, the go-to construction<br>
> for expressing actions in medias res, is to derive the perfective verb as<br>
> an imperfective & mark it as irrealis: eg nyi anggu-mh'-i 3pl<br>
> sleep.pfv-ipfv-irr 'they're sleeping'.<br>
><br>
> Joseph<br>
><br>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 7:00 AM <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-request@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Send Lingtyp mailing list submissions to<br>
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>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
>> than "Re: Contents of Lingtyp digest..."<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Today's Topics:<br>
>><br>
>> 1. Re: R: Non-present lexemes (Tom Koss)<br>
>> 2. Re: R: Non-present lexemes (Christian Lehmann)<br>
>> 3. Re: R: Non-present lexemes (Wiemer, Bjoern)<br>
>> 4. Re: R: Non-present lexemes (Tom Koss)<br>
>> 5. Re: spectrograms in linguistic description and for language<br>
>> comparison (Cat Butz)<br>
>> 6. Re: spectrograms in linguistic description and for language<br>
>> comparison (Lidia Federica Mazzitelli)<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> Message: 1<br>
>> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 10:54:33 +0000<br>
>> From: Tom Koss <<a href="mailto:Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be" target="_blank">Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be</a>><br>
>> To: Lingtyp list <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes<br>
>> Message-ID:<br>
>> <<br>
>> <a href="mailto:AS8PR05MB10112242C03396C8CD6827DD49A1A9@AS8PR05MB10112.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com" target="_blank">AS8PR05MB10112242C03396C8CD6827DD49A1A9@AS8PR05MB10112.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com</a><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>
>><br>
>> Dear all,<br>
>><br>
>> many, many thanks for all the responses! I really appreciate it. I hope<br>
>> you forgive me that I cannot respond to every contributor personally.<br>
>><br>
>> A few summarizing observations: this phenomenon seems to be much more<br>
>> widespread than I would have assumed, especially in Indo-European and<br>
>> Uralic languages. Also, non-present semantics seems to be associated mostly<br>
>> with adverbs and particles, while verbal paradigms referring to the<br>
>> non-present are much rarer, the only examples for the latter being the<br>
>> recency/remoteness markers of Piraha, the Macedonian aorist and the<br>
>> perfective aspect in Russian.<br>
>><br>
>> Within the group of adverbs, I could make out three different types with<br>
>> more or less equal frequencies: adverbs indicating a short relative<br>
>> distance from the present ('recent past and near future'), adverbs<br>
>> indicating a great relative distance from the present ('remote past and<br>
>> remote future'), and adverbs indicating an absolute, in most cases<br>
>> intermediate distance from the present ('yesterday and tomorrow', or even<br>
>> 'day before yesterday and day after tomorrow'). For some adverbs, one of<br>
>> the two temporal interpretations (past or future) is more typical or<br>
>> considered to be ?the correct one? by prescriptivists.<br>
>><br>
>> The fact that any clausal connective encoding some kind of sequentiality<br>
>> can, by definition, only refer to the non-present is something I hadn?t<br>
>> thought about, so thanks for drawing my attention to it. I maybe should<br>
>> have added to my definition that I am mainly looking for non-present<br>
>> semantics within simple clauses.<br>
>><br>
>> Many thanks again! Please feel free to provide me with further examples<br>
>> in case something else comes to your mind.<br>
>><br>
>> All best,<br>
>> Tom<br>
>><br>
>> ________________________________<br>
>> From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of<br>
>> Raffaele Simone <<a href="mailto:raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it" target="_blank">raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it</a>><br>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2022 5:03 PM<br>
>> To: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>; <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<br>
>> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
>> Subject: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not<br>
>> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know<br>
>> the content is safe.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Dear friends,<br>
>><br>
>> the Italian adverb ora ?now? means both ?quite recently in the past? and<br>
>> ?shortly?.<br>
>><br>
>> 1. Ne abbiamo parlato ora<br>
>><br>
>> We talked about it an instant ago<br>
>><br>
>> 1. Ne parleremo ora<br>
>><br>
>> We shall talk about it in a moment<br>
>><br>
>> Best,<br>
>><br>
>> Raffaele<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ==============<br>
>><br>
>> Emeritus Professor, Universit? Roma Tre<br>
>><br>
>> Hon C Lund University<br>
>><br>
>> Membre de l'Acad?mie Royale de Belgique<br>
>><br>
>> Chevalier de l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres de France<br>
>><br>
>> Accademico (corrispondente) della Crusca<br>
>><br>
>> Prix de l'Institut de France-Fondation Bonnefous 2022<br>
>><br>
>> ===============<br>
>><br>
>> Attivit? e pubblicazioni // Activity and publications<br>
>> <a href="http://uniroma3.academia.edu/RaffaeleSimone" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://uniroma3.academia.edu/RaffaeleSimone</a><<br>
>> <a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Funiroma3.academia.edu%2FRaffaeleSimone&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7Cb429efa4eff2415035e208dad696db03%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638058242037736669%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=NEVBVJ0AmpFZjueZOuUMJXTEklGNVSOyEyVOc8Rjjgg%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Funiroma3.academia.edu%2FRaffaeleSimone&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7Cb429efa4eff2415035e208dad696db03%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638058242037736669%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=NEVBVJ0AmpFZjueZOuUMJXTEklGNVSOyEyVOc8Rjjgg%3D&reserved=0</a><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Da: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> Per conto di<br>
>> David Gil<br>
>> Inviato: venerd? 2 dicembre 2022 20:07<br>
>> A: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
>> Oggetto: Re: [Lingtyp] Non-present lexemes<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Dear all,<br>
>><br>
>> In English, 'this evening', uttered at around 3 or 4 am, can, with a bit<br>
>> of effort, be understood as referring to either the previous evening or the<br>
>> following evening, depending on context, but not to the present time.<br>
>><br>
>> In Hebrew, a similar but less marginal (ie. much more common) pattern is<br>
>> evident with halayla (DEF:night), which, when uttered during daytime, can<br>
>> refer to either the preceding night ('last night') or the following night<br>
>> ('tonight'), but obviously not to the present.<br>
>><br>
>> The generalization seems to be that English this / Hebrew ha= plus<br>
>> part-of-day expression refers to the nearest appropriate part of day to the<br>
>> time of speech, with no inherent specification of relative (past, present<br>
>> or future) time. (With an added complication for English, which, instead<br>
>> of #this night, has either last night or tonight for past and future<br>
>> respectively.)<br>
>><br>
>> David<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>><br>
>> David Gil<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
>><br>
>> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
>><br>
>> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
>><br>
>> Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
>><br>
>> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
>><br>
>> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302<br>
>><br>
>><br>
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>> ><br>
>><br>
>> ------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> Message: 2<br>
>> Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 12:05:41 +0100<br>
>> From: Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>><br>
>> To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes<br>
>> Message-ID: <0d568841-69bb-3b9b-a2e0-cad7a9ad1c33@Uni-Erfurt.De><br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"<br>
>><br>
>> Dear Tom,<br>
>><br>
>> the semantic property you are interested in may be shared by the<br>
>> perfective aspect of more languages. Another one is Cabecar (Chibchan).<br>
>> Similarly as in Russian (salvo errore), the perfective most of the time<br>
>> refers to past events, but reference to future events is possible. It<br>
>> seems that such a behavior of an aspect morpheme is not quite the same<br>
>> as the semantics of temporal adverbs that have been adduced. These<br>
>> latter do refer to points or periods of time, whereas the perfective<br>
>> views the event in question in its entirety, including the boundaries of<br>
>> its extension in time. This is straightforwardly possible for past<br>
>> events, but requires additional interpretive effort for future events.<br>
>> What I am saying is that the perfective aspect may not quite meet the<br>
>> requirement of your initial quest about "time reference".<br>
>><br>
>> Best,<br>
>> Christian<br>
>> --<br>
>><br>
>> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
>> Rudolfstr. 4<br>
>> 99092 Erfurt<br>
>> Deutschland<br>
>><br>
>> Tel.: +49/361/2113417<br>
>> E-Post: <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><br>
>> Web: <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a><br>
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>> ><br>
>><br>
>> ------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> Message: 3<br>
>> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 11:29:37 +0000<br>
>> From: "Wiemer, Bjoern" <<a href="mailto:wiemerb@uni-mainz.de" target="_blank">wiemerb@uni-mainz.de</a>><br>
>> To: Tom Koss <<a href="mailto:Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be" target="_blank">Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be</a>>, Lingtyp list<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes<br>
>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:0c34d3e109c04545bc2e53ee81bd5a1b@uni-mainz.de" target="_blank">0c34d3e109c04545bc2e53ee81bd5a1b@uni-mainz.de</a>><br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
>><br>
>> Dear Tom,<br>
>> thanks for this nice digest. However, on the spot, I'd like to make two<br>
>> comments.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> 1. You can have sequentiality in simple clauses if you just consider<br>
>> items like Germ. dann 'then'. Speakers can just use this in reaction to<br>
>> some verbal exchange in which it has ben discussed how to act in some<br>
>> particular situation. A speaker may then (ditto!) say: Dann la? es uns doch<br>
>> so machen. (translating probably as sth. like 'Well, then let us proceed in<br>
>> this way'). This might be equivalent to "In diesem Fall / Wenn die Sache so<br>
>> ist,...." 'If this is the case... (let us do so and so)', and here dann<br>
>> might be argued to be sth. like a discourse connective to link up a verbal<br>
>> (re)action with what has been the topic of the verbal exchange. However, it<br>
>> is a simple clause. Note that it works not only with directive (hortative)<br>
>> speech acts (as above), but also with a (superficially) declarative like<br>
>> Dann machen wir es so, literally 'Then we (will) do it this way', but<br>
>> implying, of course, an indirect hortative (or even imperative) speech act<br>
>> (depending on the "power relations" betw<br>
>> een the interlocutors at the given point of discourse).<br>
>> 2. I haven't quite understood why you refer to Macedonian aorist (it<br>
>> would be same for Bulgarian). This is simply a delimitative aspect for the<br>
>> past domain. Can it be used to refer to future events?<br>
>><br>
>> And, by the way, why do you mention Russian (probably entire North<br>
>> Slavic) perfective present here? Do present tense forms of pfv. stems refer<br>
>> to past events? They may do so, indeed, if unlimited and irregular<br>
>> repetition (habituals) is what you have in mind. But in this case temporal<br>
>> reference seems to be just suspended, the only thing that counts is the<br>
>> boundedness of each particular occurrence of the denoted situation type<br>
>> (i.e. the lexical meaning of the verb). Is this what you have asked for?<br>
>><br>
>> Best,<br>
>> Bj?rn.<br>
>><br>
>> From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> On Behalf Of<br>
>> Tom Koss<br>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 11:55 AM<br>
>> To: Lingtyp list <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes<br>
>><br>
>> Dear all,<br>
>><br>
>> many, many thanks for all the responses! I really appreciate it. I hope<br>
>> you forgive me that I cannot respond to every contributor personally.<br>
>><br>
>> A few summarizing observations: this phenomenon seems to be much more<br>
>> widespread than I would have assumed, especially in Indo-European and<br>
>> Uralic languages. Also, non-present semantics seems to be associated mostly<br>
>> with adverbs and particles, while verbal paradigms referring to the<br>
>> non-present are much rarer, the only examples for the latter being the<br>
>> recency/remoteness markers of Piraha, the Macedonian aorist and the<br>
>> perfective aspect in Russian.<br>
>><br>
>> Within the group of adverbs, I could make out three different types with<br>
>> more or less equal frequencies: adverbs indicating a short relative<br>
>> distance from the present ('recent past and near future'), adverbs<br>
>> indicating a great relative distance from the present ('remote past and<br>
>> remote future'), and adverbs indicating an absolute, in most cases<br>
>> intermediate distance from the present ('yesterday and tomorrow', or even<br>
>> 'day before yesterday and day after tomorrow'). For some adverbs, one of<br>
>> the two temporal interpretations (past or future) is more typical or<br>
>> considered to be 'the correct one' by prescriptivists.<br>
>><br>
>> The fact that any clausal connective encoding some kind of sequentiality<br>
>> can, by definition, only refer to the non-present is something I hadn't<br>
>> thought about, so thanks for drawing my attention to it. I maybe should<br>
>> have added to my definition that I am mainly looking for non-present<br>
>> semantics within simple clauses.<br>
>><br>
>> Many thanks again! Please feel free to provide me with further examples<br>
>> in case something else comes to your mind.<br>
>><br>
>> All best,<br>
>> Tom<br>
>><br>
>> ________________________________<br>
>> From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<br>
>> <a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>> on behalf of Raffaele Simone<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it" target="_blank">raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it" target="_blank">raffaele.simone@uniroma3.it</a>>><br>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2022 5:03 PM<br>
>> To: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>>>;<br>
>> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<br>
>> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>><br>
>> Subject: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes<br>
>><br>
>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not<br>
>> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know<br>
>> the content is safe.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Dear friends,<br>
>><br>
>> the Italian adverb ora "now" means both "quite recently in the past" and<br>
>> "shortly".<br>
>><br>
>> 1. Ne abbiamo parlato ora<br>
>><br>
>> We talked about it an instant ago<br>
>><br>
>> 1. Ne parleremo ora<br>
>><br>
>> We shall talk about it in a moment<br>
>><br>
>> Best,<br>
>><br>
>> Raffaele<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ==============<br>
>><br>
>> Emeritus Professor, Universit? Roma Tre<br>
>><br>
>> Hon C Lund University<br>
>><br>
>> Membre de l'Acad?mie Royale de Belgique<br>
>><br>
>> Chevalier de l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres de France<br>
>><br>
>> Accademico (corrispondente) della Crusca<br>
>><br>
>> Prix de l'Institut de France-Fondation Bonnefous 2022<br>
>><br>
>> ===============<br>
>><br>
>> Attivit? e pubblicazioni // Activity and publications<br>
>> <a href="http://uniroma3.academia.edu/RaffaeleSimone" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://uniroma3.academia.edu/RaffaeleSimone</a><<br>
>> <a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Funiroma3.academia.edu%2FRaffaeleSimone&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7Cb429efa4eff2415035e208dad696db03%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638058242037736669%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=NEVBVJ0AmpFZjueZOuUMJXTEklGNVSOyEyVOc8Rjjgg%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Funiroma3.academia.edu%2FRaffaeleSimone&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7Cb429efa4eff2415035e208dad696db03%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638058242037736669%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=NEVBVJ0AmpFZjueZOuUMJXTEklGNVSOyEyVOc8Rjjgg%3D&reserved=0</a><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Da: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<br>
>> <a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>> Per conto di David Gil<br>
>> Inviato: venerd? 2 dicembre 2022 20:07<br>
>> A: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><mailto:<br>
>> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
>> Oggetto: Re: [Lingtyp] Non-present lexemes<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Dear all,<br>
>><br>
>> In English, 'this evening', uttered at around 3 or 4 am, can, with a bit<br>
>> of effort, be understood as referring to either the previous evening or the<br>
>> following evening, depending on context, but not to the present time.<br>
>><br>
>> In Hebrew, a similar but less marginal (ie. much more common) pattern is<br>
>> evident with halayla (DEF:night), which, when uttered during daytime, can<br>
>> refer to either the preceding night ('last night') or the following night<br>
>> ('tonight'), but obviously not to the present.<br>
>><br>
>> The generalization seems to be that English this / Hebrew ha= plus<br>
>> part-of-day expression refers to the nearest appropriate part of day to the<br>
>> time of speech, with no inherent specification of relative (past, present<br>
>> or future) time. (With an added complication for English, which, instead<br>
>> of #this night, has either last night or tonight for past and future<br>
>> respectively.)<br>
>><br>
>> David<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>><br>
>> David Gil<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Senior Scientist (Associate)<br>
>><br>
>> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution<br>
>><br>
>> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<br>
>><br>
>> Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Email: <a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de" target="_blank">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>><br>
>><br>
>> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713<br>
>><br>
>> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302<br>
>><br>
>><br>
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>> ><br>
>><br>
>> ------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> Message: 4<br>
>> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 11:31:32 +0000<br>
>> From: Tom Koss <<a href="mailto:Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be" target="_blank">Tom.Koss@uantwerpen.be</a>><br>
>> To: Lingtyp list <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes<br>
>> Message-ID:<br>
>> <<br>
>> <a href="mailto:AS8PR05MB10112A58CE55A6F10CAC6329D9A1A9@AS8PR05MB10112.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com" target="_blank">AS8PR05MB10112A58CE55A6F10CAC6329D9A1A9@AS8PR05MB10112.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com</a><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
>><br>
>> Hi Christian,<br>
>><br>
>> very true - the perfective aspect does not refer to the non-present in<br>
>> itself, its semantics simply clashes with a present interpretation in most<br>
>> instances. This is also illustrated by the fact that in some languages<br>
>> (e.g., Koiari [Trans-New Guinea]), the perfective can express, or is even<br>
>> the default way to express present-time reference on stative verbs. Whether<br>
>> an utterance like "s/he knows (right now)" should then actually be<br>
>> interpreted as "s/he has understood (in the past)" is yet another question,<br>
>> of course..<br>
>><br>
>> So indeed, I might need to remove Slavic perfectives/aorists from the<br>
>> list of non-present grams. Thanks for pointing that out.<br>
>><br>
>> Best,<br>
>> Tom<br>
>> ________________________________<br>
>> From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of<br>
>> Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>><br>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 12:05 PM<br>
>> To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not<br>
>> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know<br>
>> the content is safe.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Dear Tom,<br>
>><br>
>> the semantic property you are interested in may be shared by the<br>
>> perfective aspect of more languages. Another one is Cabecar (Chibchan).<br>
>> Similarly as in Russian (salvo errore), the perfective most of the time<br>
>> refers to past events, but reference to future events is possible. It seems<br>
>> that such a behavior of an aspect morpheme is not quite the same as the<br>
>> semantics of temporal adverbs that have been adduced. These latter do refer<br>
>> to points or periods of time, whereas the perfective views the event in<br>
>> question in its entirety, including the boundaries of its extension in<br>
>> time. This is straightforwardly possible for past events, but requires<br>
>> additional interpretive effort for future events. What I am saying is that<br>
>> the perfective aspect may not quite meet the requirement of your initial<br>
>> quest about "time reference".<br>
>><br>
>> Best,<br>
>> Christian<br>
>> --<br>
>><br>
>> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
>> Rudolfstr. 4<br>
>> 99092 Erfurt<br>
>> Deutschland<br>
>><br>
>> Tel.: +49/361/2113417<br>
>> E-Post: <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><mailto:<a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a>><br>
>> Web: <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a><<br>
>> <a href="https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C689ad1c91ced4fd65d7708dad843084e%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060079807056608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ZCa8euAbX%2BSnVaD2B36PSjPUIs409iRUP%2BRTu57b73Q%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C689ad1c91ced4fd65d7708dad843084e%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060079807056608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ZCa8euAbX%2BSnVaD2B36PSjPUIs409iRUP%2BRTu57b73Q%3D&reserved=0</a><br>
>> ><br>
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>> ><br>
>><br>
>> ------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> Message: 5<br>
>> Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 12:39:57 +0100<br>
>> From: Cat Butz <<a href="mailto:Cat.Butz@hhu.de" target="_blank">Cat.Butz@hhu.de</a>><br>
>> To: Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>><br>
>> Cc: Juergen Bohnemeyer <<a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">jb77@buffalo.edu</a>>,<br>
>> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and for<br>
>> language comparison<br>
>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:5317c939951f34d241177b69bc6c6580@hhu.de" target="_blank">5317c939951f34d241177b69bc6c6580@hhu.de</a>><br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed<br>
>><br>
>> Am 2022-12-05 09:48, schrieb Christian Lehmann:<br>
>> > I am not sure how many members of this list would wish to continue<br>
>> > this discussion.<br>
>><br>
>> I, for one, am currently writing a grammar for my dissertation and am<br>
>> reading everything in this discussion with great interest. Thanks to<br>
>> everyone participating in this discussion for pointing out all those<br>
>> things.<br>
>><br>
>> Best,<br>
>> ---<br>
>> Cat Butz (she)<br>
>> HHU D?sseldorf, general linguistics<br>
>><br>
>> Cat Butz (sie)<br>
>> HHU D?sseldorf, allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> > For something to count as proof in a science means that it corresponds<br>
>> > to a certain pattern of argumentation by the methodological standards<br>
>> > on which scientists have agreed. These patterns are different for<br>
>> > logical and for empirical sciences. I feel reminded of<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Kamlah, Wilhelm & Lorenzen, Paul 1967, _Logische Prop?deutik.<br>
>> > Vorschule des vern?nftigen Redens._ Mannheim: Bibliographisches<br>
>> > Institut (B.I.-Hochschultaschenb?cher).<br>
>> ><br>
>> > translated as:<br>
>> > _Logical Propaedeutic: Pre-school of Reasonable Discourse._ Lanham,<br>
>> > Maryland: University Press of America, 1984.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > It is true that things are more complicated in empirical disciplines<br>
>> > because we have indeed to agree upon standards of validity. And to the<br>
>> > extent that it is impractical to counter-check everything that a<br>
>> > proponent assures his audience of, there is a portion of trust<br>
>> > involved in scientific discourse of an empirical discipline.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Things work the Kamlah-Lorenzen way if a scientific claim is a simple<br>
>> > general statement of the kind 'in German, the definite article<br>
>> > precedes (rather than follows) the nominal group'. To prove it,<br>
>> > according to established standards of our discipline, it suffices for<br>
>> > me to produce a (probatory) example of a certain kind. If you do not<br>
>> > accept it, you may either operationalize my claim in such a way that<br>
>> > what I produced does not count as an example or to produce a<br>
>> > counter-example (of a postnominal definite article).<br>
>> ><br>
>> > The claim about the affix that you use as an example is more complex<br>
>> > since the issue appears to be what the correct analysis of a certain<br>
>> > occurrence is. This would have to be broken down into a set of simpler<br>
>> > statements in order to be tractable by Kamlah & Lorenzen.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Best,<br>
>> > Christian<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Am 04.12.22 um 05:26 schrieb Juergen Bohnemeyer:<br>
>> ><br>
>> >> Dear Christian ? I stand corrected! Thanks for the link, I think<br>
>> >> it?s great that you?ve looked into this issue. I sincerely wish<br>
>> >> more people had.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> And I think I agree with the policy you propose. But allow me to<br>
>> >> elaborate just a little.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Now, at the risk of splitting hairs, I?m afraid from where I look<br>
>> >> at things, ?probatory example? is an oxymoron.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> There?s nothing an example could prove. In fact, there?s no such<br>
>> >> thing as proof in science. Proof only exists in math, including in<br>
>> >> logic.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> The closest equivalent to proof in science is hypothesis testing.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Can an example ever be said to serve as a test of a hypothesis?<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Let?s say the author is aiming to adjudicate between two competing<br>
>> >> analyses. One predicts that a certain affix will appear in a certain<br>
>> >> environment, while the competing analysis predicts that it won?t.<br>
>> >> Then the author produces an example that instantiates the relevant<br>
>> >> context, and features or doesn?t feature the affix, thereby<br>
>> >> confirming one prediction or the other.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Under such conditions, the example in question can assume a role<br>
>> >> similar to that of hypothesis testing in experimental science.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> But then immediately validity concerns analogous to those in<br>
>> >> experimentation will present themselves. Such as:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> * Internal validity: Was the example correctly analyzed and coded?<br>
>> >> Is the occurrence of the affix in question actually conditioned<br>
>> >> solely by the factors the competing hypotheses assume, or could it<br>
>> >> also be conditioned by other factors?<br>
>> >> * External validity: Is the example reproducible with other<br>
>> >> members of the speech community? Assuming there are any left!<br>
>> >> * Ecological validity: Does the example actually reflect the<br>
>> >> everyday linguistic behavior of speakers of the language<br>
>> >> (/doculect)? Assuming there still is everyday use by the members of<br>
>> >> the community!<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> As I see it, the recommendations your webpage makes for documenting<br>
>> >> the conditions under which a ?probatory? example was recorded go<br>
>> >> some way toward addressing concerns with external and ecological<br>
>> >> validity.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> But the biggest challenge for addressing such concerns is in my view<br>
>> >> that we haven?t developed standards for assessing and reporting<br>
>> >> the empirical basis for our descriptions ? the speakers we collect<br>
>> >> the data from, and how well they/it represent(s) the speech<br>
>> >> community, or which speech community it represents.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Best -- Juergen<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
>> >> Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
>> >> University at Buffalo<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
>> >> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260<br>
>> >> Phone: (716) 645 0127<br>
>> >> Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
>> >> Email: <a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">jb77@buffalo.edu</a><br>
>> >> Web: <a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a> [1]<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID<br>
>> >> 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In<br>
>> >> (Leonard Cohen)<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> --<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf<br>
>> >> of Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>><br>
>> >> Date: Friday, December 2, 2022 at 10:18 AM<br>
>> >> To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
>> >> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and<br>
>> >> for language comparison<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Dear J?rgen,<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> to mitigate a bit your pessimist opinion of the methodological<br>
>> >> situation of our discipline, let me mention, as a contribution to<br>
>> >> the discussion you are requiring, my web page<br>
>> >><br>
>> ><br>
>> <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc</a><br>
>> >> [2]<br>
>> >> which advocates a distinction between<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> * a probatory example (which is data used as scientific evidence)<br>
>> >> * and an illustrative example (or pedagogical example, which is<br>
>> >> only meant to render a descriptive statement more concrete and,<br>
>> >> thus, to help understanding).<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Methodological standards for these two kinds of examples are<br>
>> >> completely different. On #1, I may recommend:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Lehmann, Christian 2004, ?Data in linguistics.? _The Linguistic<br>
>> >> Review_ 21(3/4):275-310. [3]<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Best,<br>
>> >> Christian<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> --<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
>> >> Rudolfstr. 4<br>
>> >> 99092 Erfurt<br>
>> >> Deutschland<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Tel.:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> +49/361/2113417<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> E-Post:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Web:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a> [4]<br>
>> ><br>
>> > --<br>
>> > Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
>> > Rudolfstr. 4<br>
>> > 99092 Erfurt<br>
>> > Deutschland<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Tel.:<br>
>> > +49/361/2113417<br>
>> ><br>
>> > E-Post:<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Web:<br>
>> > <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Links:<br>
>> > ------<br>
>> > [1] <a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a><br>
>> > [2]<br>
>> ><br>
>> <a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VXi3oaBXPpkSUjObO9z%2Bg0ZPyvILV%2FkhMGG441T56L8%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VXi3oaBXPpkSUjObO9z%2Bg0ZPyvILV%2FkhMGG441T56L8%3D&reserved=0</a><br>
>> > [3]<br>
>> ><br>
>> <a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F249931781_Data_in_linguistics&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UI%2BLyj4NP2pzzyidgM3Z5nh72VJP%2FHCQl1UjmMWsRRI%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F249931781_Data_in_linguistics&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UI%2BLyj4NP2pzzyidgM3Z5nh72VJP%2FHCQl1UjmMWsRRI%3D&reserved=0</a><br>
>> > [4]<br>
>> ><br>
>> <a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HAeLu5NMoRkuDSO7t0wiYIxRVXp7%2FCh1yAPK8ixnqR0%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HAeLu5NMoRkuDSO7t0wiYIxRVXp7%2FCh1yAPK8ixnqR0%3D&reserved=0</a><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > Lingtyp mailing list<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
>> > <a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> Message: 6<br>
>> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 22:50:02 +1100<br>
>> From: Lidia Federica Mazzitelli <<a href="mailto:lfmazzitelli@gmail.com" target="_blank">lfmazzitelli@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> To: Cat Butz <<a href="mailto:Cat.Butz@hhu.de" target="_blank">Cat.Butz@hhu.de</a>><br>
>> Cc: Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>>,<br>
>> <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and for<br>
>> language comparison<br>
>> Message-ID:<br>
>> <<br>
>> <a href="mailto:CABZ3858K24jfoOnE03UJjb7L3%2B28npJM43%2BWh2i7mRtbQ3Hxzg@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CABZ3858K24jfoOnE03UJjb7L3+28npJM43+Wh2i7mRtbQ3Hxzg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
>><br>
>> I also think that the discussion is really interesting, and have read (and<br>
>> wish to read more) everything with great interest!<br>
>> I am also working on the grammar of a previously undescribed and<br>
>> relatively<br>
>> endangered language, and the selection of examples from the corpus, as<br>
>> well<br>
>> as the balancing of elicitation Vs natural discourse data (especially in<br>
>> terms of negative evidence), is not as straightforward as I may have<br>
>> thought before.<br>
>> Thank you!<br>
>><br>
>> Best, Lidia<br>
>><br>
>> Il mer 7 dic 2022, 22:39 Cat Butz <<a href="mailto:Cat.Butz@hhu.de" target="_blank">Cat.Butz@hhu.de</a>> ha scritto:<br>
>><br>
>> > Am 2022-12-05 09:48, schrieb Christian Lehmann:<br>
>> > > I am not sure how many members of this list would wish to continue<br>
>> > > this discussion.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I, for one, am currently writing a grammar for my dissertation and am<br>
>> > reading everything in this discussion with great interest. Thanks to<br>
>> > everyone participating in this discussion for pointing out all those<br>
>> > things.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Best,<br>
>> > ---<br>
>> > Cat Butz (she)<br>
>> > HHU D?sseldorf, general linguistics<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Cat Butz (sie)<br>
>> > HHU D?sseldorf, allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > > For something to count as proof in a science means that it corresponds<br>
>> > > to a certain pattern of argumentation by the methodological standards<br>
>> > > on which scientists have agreed. These patterns are different for<br>
>> > > logical and for empirical sciences. I feel reminded of<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Kamlah, Wilhelm & Lorenzen, Paul 1967, _Logische Prop?deutik.<br>
>> > > Vorschule des vern?nftigen Redens._ Mannheim: Bibliographisches<br>
>> > > Institut (B.I.-Hochschultaschenb?cher).<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > translated as:<br>
>> > > _Logical Propaedeutic: Pre-school of Reasonable Discourse._ Lanham,<br>
>> > > Maryland: University Press of America, 1984.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > It is true that things are more complicated in empirical disciplines<br>
>> > > because we have indeed to agree upon standards of validity. And to the<br>
>> > > extent that it is impractical to counter-check everything that a<br>
>> > > proponent assures his audience of, there is a portion of trust<br>
>> > > involved in scientific discourse of an empirical discipline.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Things work the Kamlah-Lorenzen way if a scientific claim is a simple<br>
>> > > general statement of the kind 'in German, the definite article<br>
>> > > precedes (rather than follows) the nominal group'. To prove it,<br>
>> > > according to established standards of our discipline, it suffices for<br>
>> > > me to produce a (probatory) example of a certain kind. If you do not<br>
>> > > accept it, you may either operationalize my claim in such a way that<br>
>> > > what I produced does not count as an example or to produce a<br>
>> > > counter-example (of a postnominal definite article).<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > The claim about the affix that you use as an example is more complex<br>
>> > > since the issue appears to be what the correct analysis of a certain<br>
>> > > occurrence is. This would have to be broken down into a set of simpler<br>
>> > > statements in order to be tractable by Kamlah & Lorenzen.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Best,<br>
>> > > Christian<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Am 04.12.22 um 05:26 schrieb Juergen Bohnemeyer:<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > >> Dear Christian ? I stand corrected! Thanks for the link, I think<br>
>> > >> it?s great that you?ve looked into this issue. I sincerely wish<br>
>> > >> more people had.<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> And I think I agree with the policy you propose. But allow me to<br>
>> > >> elaborate just a little.<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> Now, at the risk of splitting hairs, I?m afraid from where I look<br>
>> > >> at things, ?probatory example? is an oxymoron.<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> There?s nothing an example could prove. In fact, there?s no such<br>
>> > >> thing as proof in science. Proof only exists in math, including in<br>
>> > >> logic.<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> The closest equivalent to proof in science is hypothesis testing.<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> Can an example ever be said to serve as a test of a hypothesis?<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> Let?s say the author is aiming to adjudicate between two competing<br>
>> > >> analyses. One predicts that a certain affix will appear in a certain<br>
>> > >> environment, while the competing analysis predicts that it won?t.<br>
>> > >> Then the author produces an example that instantiates the relevant<br>
>> > >> context, and features or doesn?t feature the affix, thereby<br>
>> > >> confirming one prediction or the other.<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> Under such conditions, the example in question can assume a role<br>
>> > >> similar to that of hypothesis testing in experimental science.<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> But then immediately validity concerns analogous to those in<br>
>> > >> experimentation will present themselves. Such as:<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> * Internal validity: Was the example correctly analyzed and coded?<br>
>> > >> Is the occurrence of the affix in question actually conditioned<br>
>> > >> solely by the factors the competing hypotheses assume, or could it<br>
>> > >> also be conditioned by other factors?<br>
>> > >> * External validity: Is the example reproducible with other<br>
>> > >> members of the speech community? Assuming there are any left!<br>
>> > >> * Ecological validity: Does the example actually reflect the<br>
>> > >> everyday linguistic behavior of speakers of the language<br>
>> > >> (/doculect)? Assuming there still is everyday use by the members of<br>
>> > >> the community!<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> As I see it, the recommendations your webpage makes for documenting<br>
>> > >> the conditions under which a ?probatory? example was recorded go<br>
>> > >> some way toward addressing concerns with external and ecological<br>
>> > >> validity.<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> But the biggest challenge for addressing such concerns is in my view<br>
>> > >> that we haven?t developed standards for assessing and reporting<br>
>> > >> the empirical basis for our descriptions ? the speakers we collect<br>
>> > >> the data from, and how well they/it represent(s) the speech<br>
>> > >> community, or which speech community it represents.<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> Best -- Juergen<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
>> > >> Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
>> > >> University at Buffalo<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
>> > >> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260<br>
>> > >> Phone: (716) 645 0127<br>
>> > >> Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
>> > >> Email: <a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">jb77@buffalo.edu</a><br>
>> > >> Web: <a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a> [1]<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID<br>
>> > >> 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In<br>
>> > >> (Leonard Cohen)<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> --<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf<br>
>> > >> of Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>><br>
>> > >> Date: Friday, December 2, 2022 at 10:18 AM<br>
>> > >> To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
>> > >> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
>> > >> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and<br>
>> > >> for language comparison<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> Dear J?rgen,<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> to mitigate a bit your pessimist opinion of the methodological<br>
>> > >> situation of our discipline, let me mention, as a contribution to<br>
>> > >> the discussion you are requiring, my web page<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > ><br>
>> ><br>
>> <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc</a><br>
>> > >> [2]<br>
>> > >> which advocates a distinction between<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> * a probatory example (which is data used as scientific evidence)<br>
>> > >> * and an illustrative example (or pedagogical example, which is<br>
>> > >> only meant to render a descriptive statement more concrete and,<br>
>> > >> thus, to help understanding).<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> Methodological standards for these two kinds of examples are<br>
>> > >> completely different. On #1, I may recommend:<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> Lehmann, Christian 2004, ?Data in linguistics.? _The Linguistic<br>
>> > >> Review_ 21(3/4):275-310. [3]<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> Best,<br>
>> > >> Christian<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> --<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
>> > >> Rudolfstr. 4<br>
>> > >> 99092 Erfurt<br>
>> > >> Deutschland<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> Tel.:<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> +49/361/2113417<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> E-Post:<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> Web:<br>
>> > >><br>
>> > >> <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a> [4]<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > --<br>
>> > > Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
>> > > Rudolfstr. 4<br>
>> > > 99092 Erfurt<br>
>> > > Deutschland<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Tel.:<br>
>> > > +49/361/2113417<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > E-Post:<br>
>> > > <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Web:<br>
>> > > <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Links:<br>
>> > > ------<br>
>> > > [1] <a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a><br>
>> > > [2]<br>
>> > ><br>
>> ><br>
>> <a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VXi3oaBXPpkSUjObO9z%2Bg0ZPyvILV%2FkhMGG441T56L8%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VXi3oaBXPpkSUjObO9z%2Bg0ZPyvILV%2FkhMGG441T56L8%3D&reserved=0</a><br>
>> > > [3]<br>
>> > ><br>
>> ><br>
>> <a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F249931781_Data_in_linguistics&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UI%2BLyj4NP2pzzyidgM3Z5nh72VJP%2FHCQl1UjmMWsRRI%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F249931781_Data_in_linguistics&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UI%2BLyj4NP2pzzyidgM3Z5nh72VJP%2FHCQl1UjmMWsRRI%3D&reserved=0</a><br>
>> > > [4]<br>
>> > ><br>
>> ><br>
>> <a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HAeLu5NMoRkuDSO7t0wiYIxRVXp7%2FCh1yAPK8ixnqR0%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HAeLu5NMoRkuDSO7t0wiYIxRVXp7%2FCh1yAPK8ixnqR0%3D&reserved=0</a><br>
>> > > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > > Lingtyp mailing list<br>
>> > > <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
>> > > <a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > Lingtyp mailing list<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
>> > <a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>
>> ><br>
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<br>
=========================================================<br>
|||| Pier Marco Bertinetto<br>
------ professore emerito<br>
/////// Scuola Normale Superiore<br>
------- <a href="http://p.za" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">p.za</a> dei Cavalieri 7<br>
/////// I-56126 PISA<br>
------- phone: +39 050 509111<br>
///////<br>
------- HOME<br>
/////// via Matteotti 197<br>
------- I-55049 Viareggio LU<br>
/////// phone: +39 0584 652417<br>
------- cell.: +39 368 3830251<br>
=========================================================<br>
editor of "Italian Journal of Linguistics"<br>
webpage <<a href="https://www.sns.it/it/bertinetto-pier-marco" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.sns.it/it/bertinetto-pier-marco</a>><br>
"Laboratorio di Linguistica" <<a href="http://linguistica.sns.it" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://linguistica.sns.it</a>><br>
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