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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear all – I’m really puzzled by the turn this thread has taken. Do people really believe that usage-based grammars don’t support wellformedness judgments? Why would that be?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I maintain that my concepts of cats and dogs are usage-based. That doesn’t prevent me from distinguishing cats from dogs from other critters and things with great confidence.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Why wouldn’t the same kind of usage-based conceptual knowledge allow me to assess whether a given sentence is composed exhaustively of constructions I recognize as familiar?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">What am I missing here?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Of course, familiarity is a matter of degree, and so are grammaticality judgments. We know that (it seems).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">(I do agree with Randy’s rejection of decontextualized elicitation, though.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Best -- Juergen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
<br>
There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="RU" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="RU" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Marianne Mithun <mithun@linguistics.ucsb.edu><br>
<b>Date: </b>Saturday, December 10, 2022 at 2:23 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Randy J. LaPolla <randy.lapolla@gmail.com><br>
<b>Cc: </b>list, typology <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and for language comparison<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Bravo Randy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Yes, Christian, speakers certainly do have clear judgments about some things, often like allomorphy. The trick is teasing out the differences.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Marianne<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 10:40 AM Randy J. LaPolla <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear Lidia,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">balancing of elicitation Vs natural discourse data (especially in terms of negative evidence), is not as straightforward as I may have thought before.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">If I may, I’d like to suggest not using negative evidence at all. Here is the reasoning I presented in a recent post on Martin’s blog (<a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdlc.hypotheses.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C8b9acdbbfcfd4c69825c08dadae3ce4c%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638062969915996689%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=CLfs1jbzAAqhcBkxHnpNMb1bASkx52TwggijR5DPN7A%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://dlc.hypotheses.org/</a>)
called “Non-Structuralist Linguistics”. I also question the whole idea of “grammaticality”, which I think is a prescriptivist notion. Here is the relevant passage:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">. . . <span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>because<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>a<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>written<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>bias<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>in<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>history<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>linguistics<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>(Linell<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>2005),<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>and<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>later<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>influence<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>Rationalism<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>in<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>late<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>20<sup>th</sup><span style="letter-spacing:-2.35pt"> </span>century, the<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>use<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>natural<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>language<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>data<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>is<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>not<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>common,<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>and<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>often<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>either<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>a<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>context-less<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>elicitation<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>method<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>and<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>“grammaticality”<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>judgements<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>are<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>used,<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>or<span style="letter-spacing:2.05pt"> </span>sentences<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>are<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>made<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>up<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>by<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>linguist.<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>No<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>other<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>science<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>allows<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>scientist<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>to<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>make<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>up<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>his<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>or<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>her<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>own<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>data,<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>and<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>so<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>this<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>is<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>something<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>linguists<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>should<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>give<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>up.<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>Asking<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>for<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>“grammaticality”<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>judgements,<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>particularly<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>negative<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>ones,<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>is<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>problematic,<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>because<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>you<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>are<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>not<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>testing<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>grammaticality,<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>but<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>testing<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>person’s<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>ability<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>to<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>imagine<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>a<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>context<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>in<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>which<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>sentence<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>makes<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>sense.<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>This<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>might<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>tell<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>us<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>something<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>about<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>frequency<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>a<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>form,<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>but<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>not<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>its grammaticality. As Chao Yuen Ren (</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"PingFang TC",sans-serif">赵</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic"">元任</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">) commented on Wang Li’s (</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic"">王</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Yu Gothic",sans-serif">⼒</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">)
MA thesis<span style="letter-spacing:8.2pt"> "</span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Yu Gothic",sans-serif">⾔</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"MS Gothic"">有易，</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Yu Gothic",sans-serif">⾔⽆</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"PingFang TC",sans-serif">难</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">”
(‘It is easy to say what does exist, (but) it is difficult to say what does not exist’).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">In<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>fact<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>whole<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>concept<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>grammaticality<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>is<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>a<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>prescriptivist<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>notion,<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>not<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>a<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>descriptivist<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>notion,<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>established<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>by<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>language<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>teachers<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>based<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>on<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>some<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>abstract<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>ideal<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>and<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>influenced<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>by<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>written<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>bias.<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>What<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>we<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>think<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>as<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>grammaticality<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>is<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>just<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>our<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>sensibilities,<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>which<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>reflect<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>our<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>own<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>habits,<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>and<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>whether<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>we<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>can<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>make<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>sense<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>something<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>by<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>creating<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>a<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>context<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>in<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>which<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>it<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>makes<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>sense.<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>There<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>are<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>no<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>fixed<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span>rules.<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">In writing papers using a usage-based approach, there will be no “ungrammatical” examples. All generalizations are made on the basis of actual language use. One works inductively.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">All the best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Randy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">PS: This paper was originally published in Chinese, hence the Chinese quote.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">——</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">Professor Randy J. LaPolla</span><span style="font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">（</span><span style="font-family:"PingFang TC",sans-serif;color:black">罗</span><span style="font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">仁地</span><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:black">)</span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">,
PhD FAHA </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">Center for Language Sciences</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">Institute for Advanced Studies in Humanities and Social Sciences</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">Beijing Normal University at Zhuhai</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black">A302, Muduo Building, #18 Jinfeng Road, Zhuhai City, Guangdong, China</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Frandylapolla.info%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C8b9acdbbfcfd4c69825c08dadae3ce4c%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638062969915996689%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Sd%2F8z2Qk5KBuCMJ28JhL41MLsSlTvbqc2Y1KDdzOPKg%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://randylapolla.info</a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:black">ORCID ID: </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#494A4C;background:white"><a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Forcid.org%2F0000-0002-6100-6196&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C8b9acdbbfcfd4c69825c08dadae3ce4c%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638062969915996689%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=SJ0CDABsLKJLF2IQaMDlSxtFiTY%2Bk8eQFvUKLOXBuf0%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://orcid.org/0000-0002-6100-6196</a> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"PingFang TC",sans-serif;color:black">邮编</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">：</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;color:black">519000<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">广</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"PingFang TC",sans-serif;color:black">东</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">省珠海市唐家湾</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"PingFang TC",sans-serif;color:black">镇</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">金</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"PingFang TC",sans-serif;color:black">凤</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">路</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;color:black">18</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">号木</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"PingFang TC",sans-serif;color:black">铎</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">楼</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;color:black">A302<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">北京</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"PingFang TC",sans-serif;color:black">师</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">范大学珠海校区</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;color:black"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">人文和社会科学高等研究院</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;color:black"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"PingFang TC",sans-serif;color:black">语</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"MS Gothic";color:black">言科学研究中心</span><span style="font-size:11.5pt;color:black"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On 7 Dec 2022, at 7:50 PM, Lidia Federica Mazzitelli <<a href="mailto:lfmazzitelli@gmail.com" target="_blank">lfmazzitelli@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I also think that the discussion is really interesting, and have read (and wish to read more) everything with great interest! <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I am also working on the grammar of a previously undescribed and relatively endangered language, and the selection of examples from the corpus, as well as the balancing of elicitation Vs natural discourse
data (especially in terms of negative evidence), is not as straightforward as I may have thought before.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Thank you!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Best, Lidia <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Il mer 7 dic 2022, 22:39 Cat Butz <<a href="mailto:Cat.Butz@hhu.de" target="_blank">Cat.Butz@hhu.de</a>> ha scritto:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Am 2022-12-05 09:48, schrieb Christian Lehmann:<br>
> I am not sure how many members of this list would wish to continue<br>
> this discussion.<br>
<br>
I, for one, am currently writing a grammar for my dissertation and am <br>
reading everything in this discussion with great interest. Thanks to <br>
everyone participating in this discussion for pointing out all those <br>
things.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
---<br>
Cat Butz (she)<br>
HHU Düsseldorf, general linguistics<br>
<br>
Cat Butz (sie)<br>
HHU Düsseldorf, allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> For something to count as proof in a science means that it corresponds<br>
> to a certain pattern of argumentation by the methodological standards<br>
> on which scientists have agreed. These patterns are different for<br>
> logical and for empirical sciences. I feel reminded of<br>
> <br>
> Kamlah, Wilhelm & Lorenzen, Paul 1967, _Logische Propädeutik.<br>
> Vorschule des vernünftigen Redens._ Mannheim: Bibliographisches<br>
> Institut (B.I.-Hochschultaschenbücher).<br>
> <br>
> translated as:<br>
> _Logical Propaedeutic: Pre-school of Reasonable Discourse._ Lanham,<br>
> Maryland: University Press of America, 1984.<br>
> <br>
> It is true that things are more complicated in empirical disciplines<br>
> because we have indeed to agree upon standards of validity. And to the<br>
> extent that it is impractical to counter-check everything that a<br>
> proponent assures his audience of, there is a portion of trust<br>
> involved in scientific discourse of an empirical discipline.<br>
> <br>
> Things work the Kamlah-Lorenzen way if a scientific claim is a simple<br>
> general statement of the kind 'in German, the definite article<br>
> precedes (rather than follows) the nominal group'. To prove it,<br>
> according to established standards of our discipline, it suffices for<br>
> me to produce a (probatory) example of a certain kind. If you do not<br>
> accept it, you may either operationalize my claim in such a way that<br>
> what I produced does not count as an example or to produce a<br>
> counter-example (of a postnominal definite article).<br>
> <br>
> The claim about the affix that you use as an example is more complex<br>
> since the issue appears to be what the correct analysis of a certain<br>
> occurrence is. This would have to be broken down into a set of simpler<br>
> statements in order to be tractable by Kamlah & Lorenzen.<br>
> <br>
> Best,<br>
> Christian<br>
> <br>
> Am 04.12.22 um 05:26 schrieb Juergen Bohnemeyer:<br>
> <br>
>> Dear Christian – I stand corrected! Thanks for the link, I think<br>
>> it’s great that you’ve looked into this issue. I sincerely wish<br>
>> more people had.<br>
>> <br>
>> And I think I agree with the policy you propose. But allow me to<br>
>> elaborate just a little.<br>
>> <br>
>> Now, at the risk of splitting hairs, I’m afraid from where I look<br>
>> at things, ‘probatory example’ is an oxymoron.<br>
>> <br>
>> There’s nothing an example could prove. In fact, there’s no such<br>
>> thing as proof in science. Proof only exists in math, including in<br>
>> logic.<br>
>> <br>
>> The closest equivalent to proof in science is hypothesis testing.<br>
>> <br>
>> Can an example ever be said to serve as a test of a hypothesis?<br>
>> <br>
>> Let’s say the author is aiming to adjudicate between two competing<br>
>> analyses. One predicts that a certain affix will appear in a certain<br>
>> environment, while the competing analysis predicts that it won’t.<br>
>> Then the author produces an example that instantiates the relevant<br>
>> context, and features or doesn’t feature the affix, thereby<br>
>> confirming one prediction or the other.<br>
>> <br>
>> Under such conditions, the example in question can assume a role<br>
>> similar to that of hypothesis testing in experimental science.<br>
>> <br>
>> But then immediately validity concerns analogous to those in<br>
>> experimentation will present themselves. Such as:<br>
>> <br>
>> * Internal validity: Was the example correctly analyzed and coded?<br>
>> Is the occurrence of the affix in question actually conditioned<br>
>> solely by the factors the competing hypotheses assume, or could it<br>
>> also be conditioned by other factors?<br>
>> * External validity: Is the example reproducible with other<br>
>> members of the speech community? Assuming there are any left!<br>
>> * Ecological validity: Does the example actually reflect the<br>
>> everyday linguistic behavior of speakers of the language<br>
>> (/doculect)? Assuming there still is everyday use by the members of<br>
>> the community!<br>
>> <br>
>> As I see it, the recommendations your webpage makes for documenting<br>
>> the conditions under which a ‘probatory’ example was recorded go<br>
>> some way toward addressing concerns with external and ecological<br>
>> validity.<br>
>> <br>
>> But the biggest challenge for addressing such concerns is in my view<br>
>> that we haven’t developed standards for assessing and reporting<br>
>> the empirical basis for our descriptions – the speakers we collect<br>
>> the data from, and how well they/it represent(s) the speech<br>
>> community, or which speech community it represents.<br>
>> <br>
>> Best -- Juergen<br>
>> <br>
>> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
>> Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
>> University at Buffalo<br>
>> <br>
>> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
>> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260<br>
>> Phone: (716) 645 0127<br>
>> Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
>> Email: <a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">jb77@buffalo.edu</a><br>
>> Web: <a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" target="_blank">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a> [1]<br>
>> <br>
>> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID<br>
>> 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)<br>
>> <br>
>> There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In<br>
>> (Leonard Cohen)<br>
>> <br>
>> --<br>
>> <br>
>> From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf<br>
>> of Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>><br>
>> Date: Friday, December 2, 2022 at 10:18 AM<br>
>> To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
>> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and<br>
>> for language comparison<br>
>> <br>
>> Dear Jürgen,<br>
>> <br>
>> to mitigate a bit your pessimist opinion of the methodological<br>
>> situation of our discipline, let me mention, as a contribution to<br>
>> the discussion you are requiring, my web page<br>
>> <br>
> <a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C8b9acdbbfcfd4c69825c08dadae3ce4c%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638062969915996689%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=49Jw0%2Brm7cQ6xfmo5NVv8G5Y3vOo5bEdixwhb%2F7E7rQ%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc</a><br>
>> [2]<br>
>> which advocates a distinction between<br>
>> <br>
>> * a probatory example (which is data used as scientific evidence)<br>
>> * and an illustrative example (or pedagogical example, which is<br>
>> only meant to render a descriptive statement more concrete and,<br>
>> thus, to help understanding).<br>
>> <br>
>> Methodological standards for these two kinds of examples are<br>
>> completely different. On #1, I may recommend:<br>
>> <br>
>> Lehmann, Christian 2004, “Data in linguistics.” _The Linguistic<br>
>> Review_ 21(3/4):275-310. [3]<br>
>> <br>
>> Best,<br>
>> Christian<br>
>> <br>
>> --<br>
>> <br>
>> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
>> Rudolfstr. 4<br>
>> 99092 Erfurt<br>
>> Deutschland<br>
>> <br>
>> Tel.:<br>
>> <br>
>> +49/361/2113417<br>
>> <br>
>> E-Post:<br>
>> <br>
>> <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><br>
>> <br>
>> Web:<br>
>> <br>
>> <a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C8b9acdbbfcfd4c69825c08dadae3ce4c%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638062969915996689%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nm5lx%2FKa%2FblyrHhtTd5kYAfqt6LN7Ci4cf%2BNrqLN7%2BE%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a> [4]<br>
> <br>
> --<br>
> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
> Rudolfstr. 4<br>
> 99092 Erfurt<br>
> Deutschland<br>
> <br>
> Tel.:<br>
> +49/361/2113417<br>
> <br>
> E-Post:<br>
> <a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a><br>
> <br>
> Web:<br>
> <a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C8b9acdbbfcfd4c69825c08dadae3ce4c%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638062969915996689%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=nm5lx%2FKa%2FblyrHhtTd5kYAfqt6LN7Ci4cf%2BNrqLN7%2BE%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Links:<br>
> ------<br>
> [1] <a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" target="_blank">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a><br>
> [2] <br>
> <a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C8b9acdbbfcfd4c69825c08dadae3ce4c%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638062969915996689%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=49Jw0%2Brm7cQ6xfmo5NVv8G5Y3vOo5bEdixwhb%2F7E7rQ%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
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> [3] <br>
> <a href="https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F249931781_Data_in_linguistics&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C8b9acdbbfcfd4c69825c08dadae3ce4c%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638062969915996689%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=SF%2BMr79G%2BErZep%2Blhr622Ti%2FiN45WziaPiL%2FEsBi9eo%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
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