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<p><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin">Dear
Lameen,</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin">Thanks
for
your comment.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>My use of
the
"WEIRD" acronym was perhaps a little sloppy, but at least it
served
its primary purpose of triggering some conversation :-)</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin">A
somewhat
more precise formulation of what I have in mind might appeal to
either or both
of the following partly-overlapping and partly-distinct notions:</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin">1.
Societies
of greater sociopolitical complexity, as measured by various
features in
D-Place and other similar databases (Benítez-Burraco 2022 and
elsewhere).</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin">2.
Cultures
descended from a process of urbanization that took place in </span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;
mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:
EN-US;mso-fareast-language:JA" lang="EN-US">ancient Mesapotamia
and Egypt some 6,000
years ago (Wengrow 2014 and elsewhere)</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:
minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;
mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:JA" lang="EN-US">The
strong hypothesis would be
that cumulative songs with syntactic recursion would be limited
to societies of
greater sociopolitical complexity and/or cultures descended from
ancient
urbanization in Mesapotamia and Egypt.<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>"Had
Gadya" clearly satisfies the second of these two criteria, and
probably
also the first (depending on when and where it actually first
arose).<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>On the other
hand, I suggest that cumulative
songs with syntactic recursion would not be found in traditional
(ie. precolonial)
cultures that are geographically distant from south plus west
Eurasia (plus
northern Africa).</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:
minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;
mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:JA" lang="EN-US">Best,</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:
minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin;
mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:JA" lang="EN-US">David</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:27.0pt;text-align:justify;text-indent:
-27.0pt;mso-pagination:widow-orphan lines-together"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-family:
Calibri;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin">Benítez-Burraco,
Antonio, Candy
Cahuana, Sihan Chen, David Gil, Ljiljana Progovac, Jana
Reifegerste and Tatiana
Tatarinova (2022) "Cognitive and Genetic Correlates of a Single
Macro-Parameter of Crosslinguistic Variation", The Evolution of
Language,
Proceedings of the 14th International Conference (EVOLANG14).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:27.0pt;text-align:justify;text-indent:
-27.0pt;mso-pagination:widow-orphan lines-together"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-family:
Calibri;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin">Wengrow, David (2014) <i>The
Origins
of Monsters</i>, Princeton University Press, Princeton NJ. <br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:27.0pt;text-align:justify;text-indent:
-27.0pt;mso-pagination:widow-orphan lines-together"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-family:
Calibri;mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-latin"><br>
</span></p>
<p>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/02/2023 01:38, Lameen Souag
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAL=NjGtXp5iWLPsTXK_AgyxKq6oE2ELtWKHh4Ty4M3BK2iNSiA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dear David,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>>
so far no
examples have come to light from other "non-WEIRD" parts of
the world
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The Aramaic speakers who composed Had Gadya were neither
Western nor Industrialized nor Democratic, so that would
appear to furnish at least one non-WEIRD example. Of the
components of that acronym, I would bet on Educated (more
specifically, literate) being the one factor that might well
be directly relevant, but it will be interesting to see what
comes up!<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Lameen<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 1:00
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: query: cumulative songs (David Gil)<br>
2. Re: query: cumulative songs (Juergen Bohnemeyer)<br>
3. The future of linguistics (Jesse P. Gates)<br>
4. Re: Lingtyp Digest, Vol 101, Issue 9 (Lameen Souag)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2023 22:13:09 +0900<br>
From: David Gil <<a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
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Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] query: cumulative songs<br>
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<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
Thanks for all the nice examples of cumulative songs, and do
please keep <br>
them coming in.<br>
<br>
I have already learned an important thing from the responses
so far.? <br>
While cumulative songs and stories seem to be widespread
around the <br>
world, they kind of recursive syntactic embedding
accompanying such <br>
cumulation that is found in the likes of "House that Jack
Built" and <br>
"Had Gadya", seems to have a much narrower distribution, and
so far no <br>
examples have come to light from other "non-WEIRD" parts of
the world.? <br>
Are there really no such cases from elsewhere?<br>
<br>
I would like to be able to conclude that such syntactic
recursion is a <br>
characteristic feature of WEIRD languages and cultures, but
am sticking <br>
my neck out in order to invite counterexamples ...<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
David<br>
</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302
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