<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><span style="font-family: -webkit-standard; font-size: medium;">Jesse,</span><div><span style="font-family: -webkit-standard; font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family: -webkit-standard; font-size: medium;"> /bʱ/ and /bʰ/ are simply notational variants, with /bʱ/ a more precise one, given that the airflow after the release is invariably voiced in [bʱ].</span><div style="font-size: 15px;"><br></div><div style="font-size: 15px;"> /b̤/, as long as this notation is being used for a segment in which the breathiness is aligned with the consonantal constriction (and not as an alternative</div><div style="font-size: 15px;">notation for [bʱ]), represents a quite different phonetic entity with very different timing of the oral and laryngeal gestures.</div><div style="font-size: 15px;"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div>Ian</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Mar 28, 2023, at 20:08, Jesse P. Gates <stauskad@gmail.com> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Dear Ian,</div><div><br></div>Thanks! So bʱ and bʰ are the same, but bʱ/bʰ are different from b̤? Or is it bʰ is different from bʱ and b̤? Or are all three different?<br><div><br></div><div>Best wishes,</div><div>Jesse</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:00 AM Ian Maddieson <<a href="mailto:ianm@berkeley.edu">ianm@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Jesse,<div><br></div><div>That was exactly the distinction I was talking about. Hindi has bʱ, Shanghai has b̤.</div><div><br></div><div>Ian Maddi<u>e</u>son</div><div><br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Mar 28, 2023, at 18:11, Jesse P. Gates <<a href="mailto:stauskad@gmail.com" target="_blank">stauskad@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr">Dear Ians,<div><br></div><div>I agree with Dr. Maddison, for breathy vs. aspirated, but what about bʱ <font color="#202122" face="sans-serif"><span style="white-space:nowrap">vs.</span></font> b̤? Are these the same?</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 7:47 AM Ian Maddieson <<a href="mailto:ianm@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">ianm@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Hi Ian,<div><br></div><div>The short answer is no, but with some nuance. Voiced aspirated consonants have a voiced high airflow period after the constriction is released.</div><div>These may often be also described as breathy voiced in some sources. However, breathy voiced consonants also occur in which the breathiness</div><div>is essentially manifested during the constriction of the consonant with maybe a brief spillover and/or anticipation in an adjoining vowel. These</div><div>are not phonetically equivalent to voiced aspirates. I don’t know of a languages that contrasts both types, so deciding if they are phonologically</div><div>equivalent would depend on looking at other factors, such as distributional tendencies or co-occurrence patterns. </div><div><br></div><div>Ian<br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Mar 28, 2023, at 04:39, Ian Joo <<a href="mailto:ian_joo@nucba.ac.jp" target="_blank">ian_joo@nucba.ac.jp</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="auto">Dear typologists,<div><br></div><div>Is there any meaningful distinction between voiced aspirated (e.g. /<span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;white-space:nowrap;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">bʰ/) and breathy voiced (e.g. /</span>b̤/) consonants, phonetically or phonologically?</div><div>In other words, is it safe to say <span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;white-space:nowrap;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">bʰ = </span>bʱ <span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;white-space:nowrap;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">=</span> b̤?</div><div><br></div><div>From Netherlands,</div><div>Ian</div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Lingtyp mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br><a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br><div>
<span style="border-collapse:separate;font-family:Times;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><div>Ian Maddieson</div><div><br></div><div>Department of Linguistics</div><div>University of New Mexico</div><div>MSC03-2130</div><div>Albuquerque NM 87131-0001</div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div></span><br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span>-- </span><br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Best regards,</span><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br><b>Jesse P. Gates, PhD<br></b>Nankai University, School of Literature 南开大学文学院<br><a href="https://nankai.academia.edu/JesseGates" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">https://nankai.academia.edu/JesseGates</a></span></div></div></div>
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<span style="border-collapse:separate;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-spacing:0px"><div><div>Ian Maddieson</div><div><br></div><div>Department of Linguistics</div><div>University of New Mexico</div><div>MSC03-2130</div><div>Albuquerque NM 87131-0001</div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div></span><br>
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<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div><div>Ian Maddieson</div><div><br></div><div>Department of Linguistics</div><div>University of New Mexico</div><div>MSC03-2130</div><div>Albuquerque NM 87131-0001</div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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