<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr">Hi Ian(s) and everyone,</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">It’s probably also worth noting that this difference is one of the features that distinguishes Nepali and Dzongkha (both spoken in Bhutan) phonology. Nepali has the voiced aspirate series and Dzongkha (especially as spoken by older native speakers not residing in the capital) has the breathy voiced series. The languages also both have a voiceless, voiced, and voiceless aspirated series. Note that the acoustic realisation of these is quite different (presumably following from the gestural differences described by Ian Maddieson) in the two languages and speakers can tell who is a native speaker of what, based in part on how they produce them. Of course, there are many other phonological differences as well. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Cheers,</div><div dir="ltr">Gwen</div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On 29 Mar 2023, at 1:24 pm, Ian Maddieson <ianm@berkeley.edu> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><span style="font-family: -webkit-standard; font-size: medium;">Jesse,</span><div><span style="font-family: -webkit-standard; font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family: -webkit-standard; font-size: medium;"> /bʱ/ and /bʰ/ are simply notational variants, with /bʱ/ a more precise one, given that the airflow after the release is invariably voiced in [bʱ].</span><div style="font-size: 15px;"><br></div><div style="font-size: 15px;"> /b̤/, as long as this notation is being used for a segment in which the breathiness is aligned with the consonantal constriction (and not as an alternative</div><div style="font-size: 15px;">notation for [bʱ]), represents a quite different phonetic entity with very different timing of the oral and laryngeal gestures.</div><div style="font-size: 15px;"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div>Ian</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Mar 28, 2023, at 20:08, Jesse P. Gates <stauskad@gmail.com> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Dear Ian,</div><div><br></div>Thanks! So bʱ and bʰ are the same, but bʱ/bʰ are different from b̤? Or is it bʰ is different from bʱ and b̤? Or are all three different?<br><div><br></div><div>Best wishes,</div><div>Jesse</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:00 AM Ian Maddieson <<a href="mailto:ianm@berkeley.edu">ianm@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Jesse,<div><br></div><div>That was exactly the distinction I was talking about. Hindi has bʱ, Shanghai has b̤.</div><div><br></div><div>Ian Maddi<u>e</u>son</div><div><br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Mar 28, 2023, at 18:11, Jesse P. Gates <<a href="mailto:stauskad@gmail.com" target="_blank">stauskad@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr">Dear Ians,<div><br></div><div>I agree with Dr. Maddison, for breathy vs. aspirated, but what about bʱ <font color="#202122" face="sans-serif"><span style="white-space:nowrap">vs.</span></font> b̤? Are these the same?</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 7:47 AM Ian Maddieson <<a href="mailto:ianm@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">ianm@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Hi Ian,<div><br></div><div>The short answer is no, but with some nuance. Voiced aspirated consonants have a voiced high airflow period after the constriction is released.</div><div>These may often be also described as breathy voiced in some sources. However, breathy voiced consonants also occur in which the breathiness</div><div>is essentially manifested during the constriction of the consonant with maybe a brief spillover and/or anticipation in an adjoining vowel. These</div><div>are not phonetically equivalent to voiced aspirates. I don’t know of a languages that contrasts both types, so deciding if they are phonologically</div><div>equivalent would depend on looking at other factors, such as distributional tendencies or co-occurrence patterns. </div><div><br></div><div>Ian<br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Mar 28, 2023, at 04:39, Ian Joo <<a href="mailto:ian_joo@nucba.ac.jp" target="_blank">ian_joo@nucba.ac.jp</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="auto">Dear typologists,<div><br></div><div>Is there any meaningful distinction between voiced aspirated (e.g. /<span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;white-space:nowrap;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">bʰ/) and breathy voiced (e.g. /</span>b̤/) consonants, phonetically or phonologically?</div><div>In other words, is it safe to say <span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;white-space:nowrap;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">bʰ = </span>bʱ <span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);font-family:sans-serif;white-space:nowrap;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">=</span> b̤?</div><div><br></div><div>From Netherlands,</div><div>Ian</div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Lingtyp mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br><a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br><div>
<span style="border-collapse:separate;font-family:Times;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><div>Ian Maddieson</div><div><br></div><div>Department of Linguistics</div><div>University of New Mexico</div><div>MSC03-2130</div><div>Albuquerque NM 87131-0001</div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div></span><br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span>-- </span><br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Best regards,</span><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br><b>Jesse P. Gates, PhD<br></b>Nankai University, School of Literature 南开大学文学院<br><a href="https://nankai.academia.edu/JesseGates" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">https://nankai.academia.edu/JesseGates</a></span></div></div></div>
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<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; border-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;"><div><div>Ian Maddieson</div><div><br></div><div>Department of Linguistics</div><div>University of New Mexico</div><div>MSC03-2130</div><div>Albuquerque NM 87131-0001</div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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