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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi folks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Just briefly, I think Enfield’s recent analysis of prosodic structure in Lao<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://doi.org/10.1093/oso/9780198865681.003.0007">https://doi.org/10.1093/oso/9780198865681.003.0007</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="X-NONE">…which I think also holds for Thai, suggests that while it may be
<i>possible</i> to handle prosodic phenomena at the word level – basically by proliferating word “types” – it’s more
<i>desirable</i> to handle prosodic phenomena at the sub-word level – so it’s not really a case of shoehorning the data into a particular model for at least those lgs.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="X-NONE"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="X-NONE">I’m not sure whether or not there are languages for which that would not be true – i.e. in which assuming a foot level not only adds nothing, but leads to a less insightful or unworkable analysis. To me, that’s a more
interesting question than whether or not we <i>have</i> to identify a foot distinct from syllable and word for any given language to sustain a particular prosodic analysis (lack of positive evidence not generally being taken as negative evidence in theorizing
about UG). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="X-NONE"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="X-NONE">Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="X-NONE">Mark<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Kirsten <kirstenculhane@gmail.com><br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, 7 May 2023 at 00:03<br>
<b>To: </b>Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman@utexas.edu><br>
<b>Cc: </b>LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG <LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] languages without feet?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Hi Adam and everyone else,<br>
<br>
The Strict Layer Hypothesis assumes that foot structure —as for other prosodic domains — is present in all languages. I get the impression, however, that the lack of evidence or foot structure in many languages hasn't been problematised in the same way as for
the syllable and word - e.g. Hyman's analysis of Gokana, Sheiring et al's re: Vietnamese (one exception is Özçelik 2017's paper The Foot is not an obligatory constituent of the Prosodic Hierarchy: “stress” in Turkish, French and child English).<br>
<br>
Anyway, underlying much of the discussion here is ultimately the question of what constitutes evidence for foot structure, and what is the relationship between foot structure and stress. I think there's good reasons not to treat stress as evidence for foot
structure (you can account for stress without foot structure, and empirical evidence for stress both complex and lacking for many languages). This issue is the focus of my current paper in Linguistic typology, and is discussed in more detail in my forthcoming
PhD thesis. <br>
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All the best,<br>
Kirsten <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Sat, 6 May 2023 at 11:21, Adam James Ross Tallman <<a href="mailto:ajrtallman@utexas.edu">ajrtallman@utexas.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">Thanks everyone for your responses (Ian and David + private responders),<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">Great leads to look at!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">Here's another question ... have there been any phonologists who have proposed or assume that
<i>all languages have feet</i>. I ask because I've had reviewer questions and conference questions that seem to presuppose this to be the case. I'd like to see the original arguments, if there are any.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">Adam<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Sat, May 6, 2023 at 7:20 AM Ian Maddieson <<a href="mailto:ianm@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">ianm@berkeley.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">There must be many languages in which the concept of a foot is not found to be relevant<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">(see Sun-Ah Jun’s chapter "</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#58595B;background:white">Prosodic Typology: By Prominence Type, Word prosody, and Macro-rhythm"</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#58595B;background:white"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">in <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Prosodic Typology II</span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> (edited by Sun-Ah) for some discussion. The notion of a foot does not seem to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">useful for (standard) French, Korean, Yorùbá, among many others, though it can be pressed into service<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">in languages such as Thai and Mandarin. Since it’s an abstract notion, I’m not sure what phonetic<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">data would be capable of providing direct evidence either for or against the notion of a foot, though<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">if for example, vowel length was considered important in foot construction, data could confirm the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">presence of greater length where it’s presence had been invoked to justify foot structure.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Ian<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On May 5, 2023, at 09:16, Adam James Ross Tallman <<a href="mailto:ajrtallman@utexas.edu" target="_blank">ajrtallman@utexas.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">Hello all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">In Caroline Féry's excellent
<i>Prosodic Structure and Intonation</i>, she describes a class of "phrase languages", identified as languages whereby there isn't much going on at the level of the prosodic word.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">I was wondering if anyone had *described* explicitly a language where the same thing could be said of feet (neither iambic or trochaic)? Or perhaps even more radically,
not just that the feet don't do much, but that they aren't there at all?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">Perhaps there's lots of cases where feet haven't been proposed, are there any cases where they had been proposed, but then further research (perhaps some phonetic study)
found that there was no evidence for them?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#4C1130">Adam<br clear="all">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Adam J.R. Tallman</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Post-doctoral Researcher
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Friedrich Schiller Universität</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Department of English Studies</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<a href="https://protect-au.mimecast.com/s/hAQNCxngwOfLRq2w4S8iQZF?domain=listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Ian Maddieson<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Department of Linguistics<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">University of New Mexico<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">MSC03-2130<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Albuquerque NM 87131-0001<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<br>
-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Adam J.R. Tallman</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Post-doctoral Researcher
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Friedrich Schiller Universität</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Department of English Studies</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">_______________________________________________<br>
Lingtyp mailing list<br>
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