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<p>Hello, </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>This is very interesting indeed! </p>
<p>I hope someone has studied this or will.</p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I'm not sure I agree that ownership of </span><span style="font-size: 11pt;">2nd person alternations are not contested. </span></p>
<p>I think I'd say (following Silverstein and many others since) that contestation IS <span style="font-family: "Calibri Light", "Helvetica Light", sans-serif, EmojiFont, "Apple Color Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", NotoColorEmoji, "Segoe UI Symbol", "Android Emoji", EmojiSymbols; font-size: 14.6667px;">- </span>along
with its converse, imposition - <i>the</i> whole point of having this sort of alternation in a language? </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Cheers, Maïa</p>
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<p style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif; font-size:8pt">Maïa Ponsonnet</span></p>
<p style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif; font-size:8pt">Chargée de Recherche HDR @ CNRS </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif; font-size:8pt">Dynamique
Du Langage</span></p>
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<p style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif; font-size:8pt">14, avenue Berthelot, 69007 Lyon, FRANCE -- </span><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif; font-size:8pt">+33
4 72 72 65 46</span></p>
<p style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif; font-size:8pt">Adjunct @ University of Western Australia</span><br>
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<p style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt"><span style="font-family:"Calibri Light","Helvetica Light",sans-serif; font-size:8pt">Co-rédactrice en chef du <i>Journal de la Société des Océanistes</i></span></p>
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<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>De :</b> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de Sebastian Nordhoff <sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> mercredi 10 mai 2023 17:08<br>
<b>À :</b> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness</font>
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<div class="PlainText">On 5/10/23 16:28, PONSONNET Maia wrote:<br>
> Hello,<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I don't have strong view on pronouns and try my best to not hurt people <br>
> when I communicate with them, including trying to match their preferred <br>
> pronouns if I can.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> However, Juergen's parallel raises the question of whether one has the <br>
> same "ownership" relationship to pronouns as they have to their personal <br>
> name.<br>
<br>
an interesting aspect is that "ownership" of 2nd person pronouns is not <br>
contested. You can request that someone use the V-form (vous, Sie, <br>
Usted) when addressing you, and it is universally accepted that they <br>
have to comply.<br>
<br>
The same is currently not true about 3rd person pronouns.<br>
<br>
There might be some "hierarchy of rudeness" between using a dispreferred <br>
2nd person pronoun, a dispreferred 3rd person pronoun and a dispreferred <br>
(nick)name.<br>
<br>
The 3rd person part of such a hierarchy probably needs to be split up. <br>
In my perception, it is ruder to say "Noam, she" than "any researcher <br>
who publishes his research", but I am not aware of any research backing <br>
this claim.<br>
<br>
Best wishes<br>
Sebastian<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> <br>
> Ultimately, I believe this raises important and interesting questions <br>
> about our relationship to language in general?<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Cheers and kind regards to all,<br>
> <br>
> Maïa (which is actually not the same as Maia, but I usually don't <br>
> protest, because these French decorations are really tricky to produce <br>
> on these empoverished qwerty keyboards)<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Maïa Ponsonnet<br>
> <br>
> Chargée de Recherche HDR @ CNRS Dynamique Du Langage<br>
> <br>
> 14, avenue Berthelot, 69007 Lyon, FRANCE -- +33 4 72 72 65 46<br>
> <br>
> Adjunct @ University of Western Australia<br>
> <br>
> + + + + +<br>
> <br>
> Co-rédactrice en chef du /Journal de la Société des Océanistes/<br>
> <br>
> <a href="https://journals.openedition.org/jso/">https://journals.openedition.org/jso/</a>
<br>
> <<a href="https://journals.openedition.org/jso/">https://journals.openedition.org/jso/</a>><br>
> <br>
> /<br>
> /<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
> *De :* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de <br>
> Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77@buffalo.edu><br>
> *Envoyé :* mercredi 10 mai 2023 16:18<br>
> *À :* Christian Lehmann; lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>
> *Objet :* [Lingtyp] Pronouns, politeness, political correctness<br>
> <br>
> Dear Christian – I should preface this by saying that I don’t know what <br>
> caused your request for people to refrain from asking to be addressed <br>
> with their pronouns of choice. It’s very possible that I’m once again <br>
> missing some earlier parts of this thread. I tried to recover all parts <br>
> of it that had ended up in my spam folder, but it is entirely possible <br>
> that I missed something and as result am misunderstanding your request.<br>
> <br>
> With that said:<br>
> <br>
> You can choose to look upon this matter as an instance of political <br>
> correctness, but might I suggest that there is another aspect to it: <br>
> simple politeness.<br>
> <br>
> Suppose somebody insists in calling/addressing you (as) /Chris/. You <br>
> find this obnoxious and ask them to stop. They ignore you and continue <br>
> calling you /Chris/.<br>
> <br>
> Would you not agree that this behavior is simply rude? I definitely would.<br>
> <br>
> Now the policy you are suggesting, if I understand correctly, would <br>
> amount to asking people to refrain from even publicly objecting to being <br>
> addressed in a rude manner. So anybody who feels offended by how they <br>
> are being addressed or referred to should just either “suck it up” or <br>
> leave this board?<br>
> <br>
> Apparently, you believe that it is more constructive to not call out <br>
> rude behavior and (allow people to) quietly suffer it.<br>
> <br>
> I on the other hand feel that it would be more constructive if everybody <br>
> tried to refrain from being rude. If people are apparently being rude <br>
> without realizing it, respectfully point it out to them. And if they <br>
> still insist in their rude behavior even after it has been pointed out <br>
> to them, call them out for it.<br>
> <br>
> So it seems we have different views of how to best maintain politeness <br>
> in public forums.<br>
> <br>
> Best – Juergen<br>
> <br>
> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
> Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
> University at Buffalo<br>
> <br>
> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260<br>
> Phone: (716) 645 0127<br>
> Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
> Email: jb77@buffalo.edu <<a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu">mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu</a>><br>
> Web: <a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a> <<a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</a>><br>
> <br>
> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 <br>
> 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)<br>
> <br>
> There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In<br>
> (Leonard Cohen)<br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
> <br>
> *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of <br>
> Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de><br>
> *Date: *Wednesday, May 10, 2023 at 3:20 AM<br>
> *To: *lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] what is designated by a complement clause<br>
> <br>
> Am 10.05.23 um 09:01 schrieb Sebastian Nordhoff:<br>
> <br>
> On 5/10/23 08:22, Christian Lehmann wrote:<br>
> <br>
> In order to keep the constructive atmosphere in which our<br>
> communication takes place and which is a presupposition for the<br>
> success of this list , I would request that everybody abstain<br>
> from insisting on political correctness.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> some people might have a communication preference to not be referred<br>
> to by "he".<br>
> You have a preference of not being reminded of these preferences of<br>
> theirs (unless I have misread your message).<br>
> <br>
> Since you request that other people adapt to your preferences,<br>
> <br>
> No, this is not what I request. I request that nobody should insist that <br>
> others adapt to his preferences, in this and in similar respects.<br>
> <br>
> Best wishes,<br>
> Christian<br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
> <br>
> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
> Rudolfstr. 4<br>
> 99092 Erfurt<br>
> Deutschland<br>
> <br>
> Tel.:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> +49/361/2113417<br>
> <br>
> E-Post:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> christianw_lehmann@arcor.de <<a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de">mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a>><br>
> <br>
> Web:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a> <<a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu/">https://www.christianlehmann.eu/</a>><br>
> <br>
> <br>
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