<div dir="ltr">In Japanese, bisyllabic ideophones often mark the relative degree of actional control in the height of the vowel of the second syllable. This parallels the spatiotemporal reading of vowels of the second syllable in bisyllabic ideophones in the language. /a/ has the most 'play/tolerance/slop' (as mechanical engineer's call the topic of lack of control over an action, motion, etc.). In Japanese bisyllabic ideophones, the first syllable generally connotes the properties of the figure, while the second generally connotes the larger spatiotemporal 'ground' that the figure is part of. Prof. Shoko Hamano covers the spatiotemporal part in her doctoral thesis from the University of Florida (the thesis can be found online in its entirety at: <a href="https://ufdc.ufl.edu/AA00003806/00001/images">https://ufdc.ufl.edu/AA00003806/00001/images</a><div><br></div><div>I don't believe that Prof. Hamano ever noticed the relation between spatiotemporal extent and actional control, however. It was the first time I'd ever noticed anything like that myself, even after decades of analyzing ideophones from very many languages over decades of work. In any case, this sort of system appears to be lacking in other languages I've examined so far. When relative degrees of control are specified, it is generally the CONSONANTS that mark the distinction rather than the vowels. And I don't know (yet) whether monosyllable ideophones in Japanese can connote control. It may be that they split between those detailing the figure and those detailing the spatiotemporal context without saying anything about the figure, and some of those may refer to control. But I've never checked.</div><div><br></div><div>Jess Tauber</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, May 13, 2023 at 5:40 AM Frans Plank <<a href="mailto:frans.plank@ling-phil.ox.ac.uk">frans.plank@ling-phil.ox.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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If this construction that wants a name is all about CONTROL and nothing but CONTROL (but I suspect it isn’t), then there’d be lots of models for naming because control is a major factor in relational typology just about everywhere. Especially in Bavarian (prefix
dɐ-). And where Nigel’s CONATIVE is in control. And of course in Salish:
<div>
<h3><a href="https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783110848731.391/html" target="_blank">Control in Salish grammar</a></h3>
<h3>LAURENCE C. THOMPSON</h3>
<div>in Relational Typology, ed F. Plank. DeGM, 1985 (and often attended to elsewhere). </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Frans</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 12. May 2023, at 11:13, <a href="mailto:mbardaj1@uni-koeln.de" target="_blank">
mbardaj1@uni-koeln.de</a> wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div><br>
Dear Tom, dear Voltaire,<br>
<br>
Sonja Riesberg, Nikolaus Himmelmann and myself recently wrote about limited-control predicates in western Austronesian languages (which include the "manage to" meaning that you mention) in the following paper:<br>
<br>
Bardají, M., Riesberg, S., & Himmelmann, N.P. (2022). Limited-Control Predicates in Western Austronesia: Stative, Dynamic, or None of the Above? Oceanic Linguistics 61(1), 118-165. (<a href="https://muse.jhu.edu/article/858601" target="_blank">https://muse.jhu.edu/article/858601</a>)<br>
<br>
Maybe what could be relevant to the constructions that you encountered is section 4.2., where we distinguish between internal abilities (inherent skills of the individual) and external abilities (possibilities determined by external factors such as luck, fate
or other outer circumstances). We argue that only external abilities are expressed by limited-control morphology (i.e. potentive), whereas internal abilities are expressed in a different way.<br>
<br>
I hope this can be useful!<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Maria Bardají<br>
<br>
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