<div dir="ltr">Yes, I realized just after sending my message that non-high back vowels are also [+grave]. I'm  not a phonetician but the vowel space suggests that high back vowels should be more "grave", greater concentration energy in the lower/est frequencies. I checked  p.35 of my old (1975) textbook and see that Diffuse won't help, since both high and mid vowels are Diffuse vs. low vowels, which are Compact. and of course only [u], and not [ɯ] is Flat. Whatever feature one chooses for vowels, these are of course gradient distinctions.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 24, 2023 at 8:52 AM Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div>
    <p>Hi Larry,</p>
    <p>thanks for the suggestion. However, unless memory fails me, all
      back vowels are [+ grave]. So we appear to need [+high] in
      addition.</p>
    <p>I do consider the alternative of an initial [ɸ] going to [h]
      except before a high back vowel. Apart from the problem that
      diachronic evidence will be hard to come by in the case of
      Cabecar, we would then face a typological problem, viz. of a
      (proto-)language whose fricatives are [s], [ʃ] and [ɸ], without an
      [h]. Again, a clash with Roman Jakobson.<br>
    </p>
    <p>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      <br>
    </p>
    <div>Am 24.05.2023 um 17:30 schrieb Larry M.
      HYMAN:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="ltr">Hello Christian, and everyone. I have been enjoying
        this exchange. Two quick observations. First, labials and back
        vowels share the Jakobsonian acoustic feature [+grave] which has
        appeared now and then in the phonological literature,<br>
        <div>particularly in the 1970s. Of course if your /h/ varies
          with [x], as you said, then it already would be [+grave]. The
          question I have is whether it's possible that the original
          consonant was a labial fricative, and the two [+high, +back]</div>
        <div>vowels shield it from debuccalization? Any voiceless
          fricative can become [h], of course. Best, Larry<br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 24, 2023 at
          8:06 AM Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>>
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div>
            <p>Dear Jérémy and everybody,</p>
            <p>you are drawing attention to the fact that, no matter
              whether we call the feature [labial] or [rounded], it is
              shared by /u/ and /o/. This calls into question the
              initial assumption:</p>
            <p>No labiality or roundedness feature is responsible for
              [h] becoming [ɸ] before [u]/[ɯ]. What seems to count,
              instead, is [+high, +back]. However, [ɸ] does not share
              [+back] with these vowels, and shares [+high] with front
              vowels, too.</p>
            <p>Your solution is that [+high, +back] increases the value
              of [labial] to [++ labial]. (For both [u] and [ɯ]?)</p>
            <p>An alternative approach would be to doubt that [h] ->
              [ɸ] / __ [u]/[ɯ] is at all a process of assimilation. But
              what is it then?<br>
            </p>
            <p>Cheers,<br>
            </p>
            <p>Christian</p>
            <p>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
            </p>
            <div>Am 24.05.2023 um 16:35 schrieb PASQUEREAU Jeremy:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite"> Dear Christian,
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>I saw your message on LingTyp and, if I understood
                the issue correctly, it seems to me you may be facing a
                similar problem as the one I faced a few years ago when
                describing the phonology of Karata (Nakh-Daghestanian):
                there’s a phonological rule (C labialization in Karata)
                that occurs in the context of some rounded vowels (/u/)
                but not others (/o/). How to discriminate between /u/
                and /o/ given that they are both [+round] (or [labial]
                if using privative features)? I wrote<a href="https://muse.jhu.edu/article/712106" target="_blank"> a paper</a> on
                this where I make the proposal that in at least some
                languages the labial feature is scalar and therefore
                phonological rules can make reference to one and not
                other labial features. Regardless of the analytical
                innovation I proposed, you may find the paper useful in
                that it discusses the range of phonetic (articulatory,
                perceptual) and phonological evidence in favor of
                distinguishing different degrees of rounding and it also
                discusses other phonological phenomena that the proposal
                can be brought to bear on.</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Best regards,</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>
                <div>
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                                <div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>Jérémy
                                    Pasquereau</b></div>
                                <div>chargé de recherche — <a href="https://jeremy-pasquereau.jimdo.com/" target="_blank"><font color="#000000">https://jeremy-pasquereau.jimdo.com/</font></a><br>
                                  <font color="#808080">Laboratoire de
                                    Linguistique de Nantes (LLING)
                                    UMR 6310, CNRS & Nantes
                                    Université — </font><a href="https://lling.univ-nantes.fr/" target="_blank"><font color="#808080">https://lling.univ-nantes.fr/</font></a></div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <br>
              <div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div>Le 23 mai 2023 à 14:40, Christian Lehmann <a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank"><christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de></a>
                    a écrit :</div>
                  <br>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p>Dear Miren and everybody,</p>
                      <p>I find this problem interesting. Nowadays
                        everybody appears to agree that syntactic and
                        morphological classes are essentially
                        distribution classes although the elements in
                        question have meaning. In the same spirit, the
                        distributionalists conceived of the phoneme in
                        terms of the distribution of phones although
                        these have physical properties. And the basic
                        phonological features like [consonantal] and
                        [syllabic] essentially relate to the
                        distribution of segments in phonotactic
                        patterns. Questions such as whether [ts]
                        consists of two segments /ts/ or is one
                        affricate /ʦ/ are not solvable by phonetics (to
                        the best of my knowledge), but are resolved by
                        analyzing the distribution of this element.
                        Again, it is true that distribution alone leads
                        to unsatisfactory classes. The complementary
                        distribution of [h] and [ŋ] in several languages
                        including English is one such example.
                        Apparently a distribution class counts as a
                        natural class only if it has a phonetic
                        motivation.</p>
                      <p>My impression is that a full phonological
                        description works with a heterogeneous set of
                        features: It does not abide by purely
                        distributional phonological features, but  also
                        needs features which are essentially phonetic
                        and have no direct relation to the distribution
                        of the segments characterized by them. This may
                        concern, in particular, features involved in
                        processes of assimilation. If a consonant
                        assimilates to an adjacent vowel, it means they
                        share a feature despite their appurtenance to
                        distinct distribution classes.</p>
                      <p>Net result for my initial question: Assuming
                        that I want a rule that assimilates a fricative
                        to a following [u], producing [ɸ], I will have
                        to accept an articulatory feature like [labial]
                        in my phonology. Does this correspond to the
                        state of the art in phonology?</p>
                      <p>Christian<br>
                      </p>
                      -- <br>
                      <div>
                        <p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em. Dr. Christian
                          Lehmann<br>
                          Rudolfstr. 4<br>
                          99092 Erfurt<br>
                          <span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></p>
                        <table style="font-size:80%">
                          <tbody>
                            <tr>
                              <td>Tel.:</td>
                              <td>+49/361/2113417</td>
                            </tr>
                            <tr>
                              <td>E-Post:</td>
                              <td><a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a></td>
                            </tr>
                            <tr>
                              <td>Web:</td>
                              <td><a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu/" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a></td>
                            </tr>
                          </tbody>
                        </table>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    _______________________________________________<br>
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                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
            <div>-- <br>
              <p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
                Rudolfstr. 4<br>
                99092 Erfurt<br>
                <span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></p>
              <table style="font-size:80%">
                <tbody>
                  <tr>
                    <td>Tel.:</td>
                    <td>+49/361/2113417</td>
                  </tr>
                  <tr>
                    <td>E-Post:</td>
                    <td><a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a></td>
                  </tr>
                  <tr>
                    <td>Web:</td>
                    <td><a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a></td>
                  </tr>
                </tbody>
              </table>
            </div>
          </div>
          _______________________________________________<br>
          Lingtyp mailing list<br>
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        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br clear="all">
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <span>-- </span><br>
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div dir="ltr">
          <div dir="ltr">
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div dir="ltr">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div dir="ltr">
                        <div>Larry M. Hyman, Distinguished Professor of
                          the Graduate School</div>
                        <div>& Director, France-Berkeley Fund,
                          University of California, Berkeley</div>
                        <div><a href="https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman</a><br>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <div>-- <br>
      <p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
        Rudolfstr. 4<br>
        99092 Erfurt<br>
        <span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></p>
      <table style="font-size:80%">
        <tbody>
          <tr>
            <td>Tel.:</td>
            <td>+49/361/2113417</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <td>E-Post:</td>
            <td><a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <td>Web:</td>
            <td><a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a></td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
    </div>
  </div>

</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Larry M. Hyman, Distinguished Professor of the Graduate School</div><div>& Director, France-Berkeley Fund, University of California, Berkeley</div><div><a href="https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>