<div dir="ltr">Hello Christian, and everyone. I have been enjoying this exchange. Two quick observations. First, labials and back vowels share the Jakobsonian acoustic feature [+grave] which has appeared now and then in the phonological literature,<br><div>particularly in the 1970s. Of course if your /h/ varies with [x], as you said, then it already would be [+grave]. The question I have is whether it's possible that the original consonant was a labial fricative, and the two [+high, +back]</div><div>vowels shield it from debuccalization? Any voiceless fricative can become [h], of course. Best, Larry<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 24, 2023 at 8:06 AM Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
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    <p>Dear Jérémy and everybody,</p>
    <p>you are drawing attention to the fact that, no matter whether we
      call the feature [labial] or [rounded], it is shared by /u/ and
      /o/. This calls into question the initial assumption:</p>
    <p>No labiality or roundedness feature is responsible for [h]
      becoming [ɸ] before [u]/[ɯ]. What seems to count, instead, is
      [+high, +back]. However, [ɸ] does not share [+back] with these
      vowels, and shares [+high] with front vowels, too.</p>
    <p>Your solution is that [+high, +back] increases the value of
      [labial] to [++ labial]. (For both [u] and [ɯ]?)</p>
    <p>An alternative approach would be to doubt that [h] -> [ɸ] / __
      [u]/[ɯ] is at all a process of assimilation. But what is it then?<br>
    </p>
    <p>Cheers,<br>
    </p>
    <p>Christian</p>
    <p>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
    </p>
    <div>Am 24.05.2023 um 16:35 schrieb
      PASQUEREAU Jeremy:<br>
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    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      Dear Christian,
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>I saw your message on LingTyp and, if I understood the issue
        correctly, it seems to me you may be facing a similar problem as
        the one I faced a few years ago when describing the phonology of
        Karata (Nakh-Daghestanian): there’s a phonological rule (C
        labialization in Karata) that occurs in the context of some
        rounded vowels (/u/) but not others (/o/). How to discriminate
        between /u/ and /o/ given that they are both [+round] (or
        [labial] if using privative features)? I wrote<a href="https://muse.jhu.edu/article/712106" target="_blank"> a paper</a> on this where I make the
        proposal that in at least some languages the labial feature is
        scalar and therefore phonological rules can make reference to
        one and not other labial features. Regardless of the analytical
        innovation I proposed, you may find the paper useful in that it
        discusses the range of phonetic (articulatory, perceptual) and
        phonological evidence in favor of distinguishing different
        degrees of rounding and it also discusses other phonological
        phenomena that the proposal can be brought to bear on.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Best regards,</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>
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                        <div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>Jérémy
                            Pasquereau</b></div>
                        <div>chargé de recherche — <a href="https://jeremy-pasquereau.jimdo.com/" target="_blank"><font color="#000000">https://jeremy-pasquereau.jimdo.com/</font></a><br>
                          <font color="#808080">Laboratoire de
                            Linguistique de Nantes (LLING) UMR 6310,
                            CNRS & Nantes Université — </font><a href="https://lling.univ-nantes.fr/" target="_blank"><font color="#808080">https://lling.univ-nantes.fr/</font></a></div>
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      <br>
      <div>
        <div><br>
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      </div>
      <div>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <div>Le 23 mai 2023 à 14:40, Christian Lehmann
            <a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank"><christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de></a> a écrit :</div>
          <br>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p>Dear Miren and everybody,</p>
              <p>I find this problem interesting. Nowadays everybody
                appears to agree that syntactic and morphological
                classes are essentially distribution classes although
                the elements in question have meaning. In the same
                spirit, the distributionalists conceived of the phoneme
                in terms of the distribution of phones although these
                have physical properties. And the basic phonological
                features like [consonantal] and [syllabic] essentially
                relate to the distribution of segments in phonotactic
                patterns. Questions such as whether [ts] consists of two
                segments /ts/ or is one affricate /ʦ/ are not solvable
                by phonetics (to the best of my knowledge), but are
                resolved by analyzing the distribution of this element.
                Again, it is true that distribution alone leads to
                unsatisfactory classes. The complementary distribution
                of [h] and [ŋ] in several languages including English is
                one such example. Apparently a distribution class counts
                as a natural class only if it has a phonetic motivation.</p>
              <p>My impression is that a full phonological description
                works with a heterogeneous set of features: It does not
                abide by purely distributional phonological features,
                but  also needs features which are essentially phonetic
                and have no direct relation to the distribution of the
                segments characterized by them. This may concern, in
                particular, features involved in processes of
                assimilation. If a consonant assimilates to an adjacent
                vowel, it means they share a feature despite their
                appurtenance to distinct distribution classes.</p>
              <p>Net result for my initial question: Assuming that I
                want a rule that assimilates a fricative to a following
                [u], producing [ɸ], I will have to accept an
                articulatory feature like [labial] in my phonology. Does
                this correspond to the state of the art in phonology?</p>
              <p>Christian<br>
              </p>
              -- <br>
              <div>
                <p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
                  Rudolfstr. 4<br>
                  99092 Erfurt<br>
                  <span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></p>
                <table style="font-size:80%">
                  <tbody>
                    <tr>
                      <td>Tel.:</td>
                      <td>+49/361/2113417</td>
                    </tr>
                    <tr>
                      <td>E-Post:</td>
                      <td><a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a></td>
                    </tr>
                    <tr>
                      <td>Web:</td>
                      <td><a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu/" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a></td>
                    </tr>
                  </tbody>
                </table>
              </div>
            </div>
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          </div>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <div>-- <br>
      <p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
        Rudolfstr. 4<br>
        99092 Erfurt<br>
        <span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></p>
      <table style="font-size:80%">
        <tbody>
          <tr>
            <td>Tel.:</td>
            <td>+49/361/2113417</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <td>E-Post:</td>
            <td><a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <td>Web:</td>
            <td><a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu" target="_blank">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a></td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
    </div>
  </div>

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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Larry M. Hyman, Distinguished Professor of the Graduate School</div><div>& Director, France-Berkeley Fund, University of California, Berkeley</div><div><a href="https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>