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<p>Hi Larry,</p>
<p>thanks for the suggestion. However, unless memory fails me, all
back vowels are [+ grave]. So we appear to need [+high] in
addition.</p>
<p>I do consider the alternative of an initial [ɸ] going to [h]
except before a high back vowel. Apart from the problem that
diachronic evidence will be hard to come by in the case of
Cabecar, we would then face a typological problem, viz. of a
(proto-)language whose fricatives are [s], [ʃ] and [ɸ], without an
[h]. Again, a clash with Roman Jakobson.<br>
</p>
<p>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 24.05.2023 um 17:30 schrieb Larry M.
HYMAN:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAMQd4M0OAG9dzDG+SCdGqPXw8j2MeLEjck0RVLc1fBEYH-pFfA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">Hello Christian, and everyone. I have been enjoying
this exchange. Two quick observations. First, labials and back
vowels share the Jakobsonian acoustic feature [+grave] which has
appeared now and then in the phonological literature,<br>
<div>particularly in the 1970s. Of course if your /h/ varies
with [x], as you said, then it already would be [+grave]. The
question I have is whether it's possible that the original
consonant was a labial fricative, and the two [+high, +back]</div>
<div>vowels shield it from debuccalization? Any voiceless
fricative can become [h], of course. Best, Larry<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, May 24, 2023 at
8:06 AM Christian Lehmann <<a
href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Dear Jérémy and everybody,</p>
<p>you are drawing attention to the fact that, no matter
whether we call the feature [labial] or [rounded], it is
shared by /u/ and /o/. This calls into question the
initial assumption:</p>
<p>No labiality or roundedness feature is responsible for
[h] becoming [ɸ] before [u]/[ɯ]. What seems to count,
instead, is [+high, +back]. However, [ɸ] does not share
[+back] with these vowels, and shares [+high] with front
vowels, too.</p>
<p>Your solution is that [+high, +back] increases the value
of [labial] to [++ labial]. (For both [u] and [ɯ]?)</p>
<p>An alternative approach would be to doubt that [h] ->
[ɸ] / __ [u]/[ɯ] is at all a process of assimilation. But
what is it then?<br>
</p>
<p>Cheers,<br>
</p>
<p>Christian</p>
<p>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</p>
<div>Am 24.05.2023 um 16:35 schrieb PASQUEREAU Jeremy:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> Dear Christian,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I saw your message on LingTyp and, if I understood
the issue correctly, it seems to me you may be facing a
similar problem as the one I faced a few years ago when
describing the phonology of Karata (Nakh-Daghestanian):
there’s a phonological rule (C labialization in Karata)
that occurs in the context of some rounded vowels (/u/)
but not others (/o/). How to discriminate between /u/
and /o/ given that they are both [+round] (or [labial]
if using privative features)? I wrote<a
href="https://muse.jhu.edu/article/712106"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"> a paper</a> on
this where I make the proposal that in at least some
languages the labial feature is scalar and therefore
phonological rules can make reference to one and not
other labial features. Regardless of the analytical
innovation I proposed, you may find the paper useful in
that it discusses the range of phonetic (articulatory,
perceptual) and phonological evidence in favor of
distinguishing different degrees of rounding and it also
discusses other phonological phenomena that the proposal
can be brought to bear on.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="auto"
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir="auto"
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir="auto"
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir="auto"
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir="auto"
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir="auto"
style="letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir="auto"
style="letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>Jérémy
Pasquereau</b></div>
<div>chargé de recherche — <a
href="https://jeremy-pasquereau.jimdo.com/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><font
color="#000000">https://jeremy-pasquereau.jimdo.com/</font></a><br>
<font color="#808080">Laboratoire de
Linguistique de Nantes (LLING)
UMR 6310, CNRS & Nantes
Université — </font><a
href="https://lling.univ-nantes.fr/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><font
color="#808080">https://lling.univ-nantes.fr/</font></a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Le 23 mai 2023 à 14:40, Christian Lehmann <a
href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de></a>
a écrit :</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<p>Dear Miren and everybody,</p>
<p>I find this problem interesting. Nowadays
everybody appears to agree that syntactic and
morphological classes are essentially
distribution classes although the elements in
question have meaning. In the same spirit, the
distributionalists conceived of the phoneme in
terms of the distribution of phones although
these have physical properties. And the basic
phonological features like [consonantal] and
[syllabic] essentially relate to the
distribution of segments in phonotactic
patterns. Questions such as whether [ts]
consists of two segments /ts/ or is one
affricate /ʦ/ are not solvable by phonetics (to
the best of my knowledge), but are resolved by
analyzing the distribution of this element.
Again, it is true that distribution alone leads
to unsatisfactory classes. The complementary
distribution of [h] and [ŋ] in several languages
including English is one such example.
Apparently a distribution class counts as a
natural class only if it has a phonetic
motivation.</p>
<p>My impression is that a full phonological
description works with a heterogeneous set of
features: It does not abide by purely
distributional phonological features, but also
needs features which are essentially phonetic
and have no direct relation to the distribution
of the segments characterized by them. This may
concern, in particular, features involved in
processes of assimilation. If a consonant
assimilates to an adjacent vowel, it means they
share a feature despite their appurtenance to
distinct distribution classes.</p>
<p>Net result for my initial question: Assuming
that I want a rule that assimilates a fricative
to a following [u], producing [ɸ], I will have
to accept an articulatory feature like [labial]
in my phonology. Does this correspond to the
state of the art in phonology?</p>
<p>Christian<br>
</p>
-- <br>
<div>
<p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em. Dr. Christian
Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
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<div>-- <br>
<p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
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<div><br>
</div>
<span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
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<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Larry M. Hyman, Distinguished Professor of
the Graduate School</div>
<div>& Director, France-Berkeley Fund,
University of California, Berkeley</div>
<div><a
href="https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman"
style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~hyman</a><br>
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</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
<p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></p>
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