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<p>Dear all,<br>
<br>
Following up on Misha's point about 3rd/4th-to-1st person shifts:
there's a common pattern in contact languages across the western
Pacific for words originally meaning 'person' to be used to form
pronominal paradigms in some or all persons (including 1st
person), typically adding the maning of plurality or clusivity.
Examples are Tok Pisin <i>-pela</i> (<English 'fellow'),
Malay/Indonesian <i>orang</i> ('person') and, if memory serves me
correctly, various Southern Min forms such as <i>lang</i>
('person'). These all seem to be areally related, though the
specific details regarding the contact that might have brought
this about remain puzzling (to me at least). <br>
<br>
For some details on the Malay/Indonesian, see</p>
<p>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:27.0pt;text-align:justify;text-indent:
-27.0pt"><span
style="mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;
mso-ansi-language:EN-GB;mso-fareast-language:JA">Gil, David
(2022) "Number
in Indonesian", in P. Acquaviva and M. Daniel eds., Number in
the World's
Languages, De Gruyter, Berlin, 457-503.</span></p>
<p>
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<p>David<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 25/05/2023 20:52, Michael Daniel
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABAHGwe4dPKise3FYz=gFKh4g7-8n-co5B9gaotrdzYTtMMcxQ@mail.gmail.com">
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<div>Hi James,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>if I understand your question, what worries you is that
the top position of your hierarchy is shared by 1PL and 4P
which are expected to be maximally separated on the
hierarchy of persons. But there is indeed a link between
these two positions, at least in diachronic terms. Think of
the French <i>on</i> (<homine) which seem to have
developed from indefinite (or non-soecific) human reference
to the first person; or of the Portuguese <i>a gente</i>
(lit. the people, the persons) which also evolved towards
first person plural reference; and a similar development
is mentioned by Velupillai 2012: 394 for a Mande language).
Motivation for this shift may lie in the domain of negative
politeness, in the sense that this way of referring to 'us'
may be viewed as a way to avoid direct reference to the
speaker.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>(Incidentally, if other colleagues are reading this, I
would be happy to have more references to such a process of
shift from third to first person references for my own
study.)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What would worry me more is that the fact that the
exponence of person is distributed between the suffix and
prefix position may be indicative of two different systems
of indexation, that could be analysed each on their own
terms. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In any case, I do not clearly see how you go from the
sets of markers you show to the hierarchy you propose. (Or
is it Anna who suggests the hierarchy?)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Michael </div>
<div> <br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">пт, 26 мая 2023 г.,
07:28 Christian Lehmann <<a
href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>One might add that since these cross-reference
indexes are affixes, they are strongly
grammaticalized, which implies, on a scale from
motivated to arbitrary, close to the arbitrary pole.</p>
<p>Christian</p>
<p>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</p>
<div>Am 26.05.2023 um 07:20 schrieb Randy J. LaPolla:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> Dear James,
<div>That there are different patterns found in
different constructions is not a problem, and not
rare. Even English does not have a consistent
alignment pattern in all constructions. This has
been known since the work of Van Valin and Foley
going back to the late 1970’s. This is a major
argument for treating grammatical categories as
construction-based rather than global categories
in the language. Of course grammaticalization of
the morphemes is also construction based (event
based), and so that is another factor. Just
analyse the language inductively, without assuming
any necessary uniformity across constructions.
Language is not a single tight logical system, it
is human behaviour, and as diverse and messy as
the rest of our behaviour. Enjoy the messiness!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All the best,</div>
<div>Randy<br>
<div>
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<div>
<div><span
style="font-size:14px">——</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-size:14px">Professor
Randy J. LaPolla</span><span
style="font-family:Verdana,Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13.333333015441895px">（罗仁地)</span><span
style="font-size:14px">,
PhD FAHA </span></div>
<div><span
style="font-size:14px">Center
for Language Sciences</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-size:14px">Institute
for Advanced Studies in
Humanities and Social
Sciences</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-size:14px">Beijing
Normal University at
Zhuhai</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-size:14px">A302,
Muduo Building, #18
Jinfeng Road, Zhuhai City</span><span
style="font-size:14px">,
Guangdong</span><span
style="font-size:14px">,
China</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-size:14px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-size:14px"><a
href="https://randylapolla.info" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://randylapolla.info</a></span></div>
<div><span>ORCID ID:<span> </span><span
style="color:rgb(73,74,76);background-color:white"><a
href="https://orcid.org/0000-0002-6100-6196"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://orcid.org/0000-0002-6100-6196</a> </span></span>
</div>
<div><span
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</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-size:15px">邮编：519087</span><br
style="font-size:15px">
<span style="font-size:15px">广东省珠海市唐家湾镇金凤路18号木铎楼A302</span><br
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<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 26 May 2023, at 8:16 AM, James Wheate
<a href="mailto:jwhe6921@uni.sydney.edu.au"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><jwhe6921@uni.sydney.edu.au></a>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="auto">
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
Hello everyone!</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
My name is James Wheate and I am
currently an undergraduate student at
the University of Sydney.</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
I write to you all today as I am facing
major problems with a language (Ainu)
that I am looking at for one of my
classes on Linguistic typology.</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
The problem in question is, Ainu is
attested to having 3 separate alignment
systems (Bugaeva, 2015) that are
determined by pronouns. Alignment in
Ainu is shown through verbal affixing
alone, with the following distribution:</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
1PL, 4SG/’Indefinite person’ are marked
using tripartite alignment:</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u>1PL:</u></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
S ci-</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
A -as</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
O un-</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u>4SG:</u></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
S a-</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
A -an</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
O i-</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
1SG is marked with nom/acc alignment:</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
S/A ku-</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
O -en</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
Lastly, 2SG, 2PL, and 3SG have
‘neutral’ alignment (so none at all,
more so just indexing) in the following
way:</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u>2SG:</u></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
S/A/O e-</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u>2PL:</u></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
S/A/O eci-</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
</div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u>3SG:</u></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
S/A/O <span>∅-</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-family:"Cambria
Math",serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-family:"Cambria
Math",serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-family:"Cambria
Math",serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white">As
far as my understanding goes, not only
is the distribution in Ainu very
uncommon, but the motivations for
these groups and systems to arise seem
unclear.</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"><br>
</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<font color="#202122"><span
style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">With
these systems it allows me to assume
there is a hierarchy as follows:</span></font></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<font color="#202122"><span
style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<font color="#202122"><span
style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">1PL/4SG
-> 1SG -> 2SG/2PL/3SG</span></font></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<font color="#202122"><span
style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<font color="#202122"><span
style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">As
far as I am aware this would be
extremely rare and hard to explain.</span></font></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white">Has
anyone else encountered anything
similar in other languages? Is there
perhaps a diachronic explanation that
leads to this morphological
complexity?</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white">As
an undergraduate I am at my wits end!</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white">Thank
you all very much and as the years
progress, I hope I can become more
active and knowledgeable on this
thread!</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white">Regards,</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span
style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white">James
Wheate.</span></div>
<br>
<br>
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<div>-- <br>
<p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em. Dr. Christian
Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></p>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
David Gil
Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">gil@shh.mpg.de</a>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302
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