<div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto"><div>Hi James,</div><div><br></div><div>if I understand your question, what worries you is that the top position of your hierarchy is shared by 1PL and 4P which are expected to be maximally separated on the hierarchy of persons. But there is indeed a link between these two positions, at least in diachronic terms. Think of the French <i>on</i> (<homine) which seem to have developed from indefinite (or non-soecific) human reference to the first person; or of the Portuguese <i>a gente</i> (lit. the people, the persons) which also evolved towards first person plural reference; and a similar development is mentioned by Velupillai 2012: 394 for a Mande language). Motivation for this shift may lie in the domain of negative politeness, in the sense that this way of referring to 'us' may be viewed as a way to avoid direct reference to the speaker.</div><div><br></div><div>(Incidentally, if other colleagues are reading this, I would be happy to have more references to such a process of shift from third to first person references for my own study.)</div><div><br></div><div>What would worry me more is that the fact that the exponence of person is distributed between the suffix and prefix position may be indicative of two different systems of indexation, that could be analysed each on their own terms. </div><div><br></div><div>In any case, I do not clearly see how you go from the sets of markers you show to the hierarchy you propose. (Or is it Anna who suggests the hierarchy?)</div><div><br></div><div>Michael </div><div> <br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">пт, 26 мая 2023 г., 07:28 Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>One might add that since these cross-reference indexes are
affixes, they are strongly grammaticalized, which implies, on a
scale from motivated to arbitrary, close to the arbitrary pole.</p>
<p>Christian</p>
<p>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</p>
<div>Am 26.05.2023 um 07:20 schrieb Randy J.
LaPolla:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
Dear James,
<div>That there are different patterns found in different
constructions is not a problem, and not rare. Even English does
not have a consistent alignment pattern in all constructions.
This has been known since the work of Van Valin and Foley going
back to the late 1970’s. This is a major argument for treating
grammatical categories as construction-based rather than global
categories in the language. Of course grammaticalization of the
morphemes is also construction based (event based), and so that
is another factor. Just analyse the language inductively,
without assuming any necessary uniformity across constructions.
Language is not a single tight logical system, it is human
behaviour, and as diverse and messy as the rest of our
behaviour. Enjoy the messiness!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All the best,</div>
<div>Randy<br>
<div>
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<div><span style="font-size:14px">——</span></div>
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Randy J. LaPolla</span><span style="font-family:Verdana,Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13.333333015441895px">（罗仁地)</span><span style="font-size:14px">, PhD FAHA </span></div>
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for Language Sciences</span></div>
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Social Sciences</span></div>
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Normal University at Zhuhai</span></div>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 26 May 2023, at 8:16 AM, James Wheate
<a href="mailto:jwhe6921@uni.sydney.edu.au" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"><jwhe6921@uni.sydney.edu.au></a> wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="auto">
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
Hello everyone!<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u></u> <u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
My name is James Wheate and I am currently an
undergraduate student at the University of Sydney.<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u></u> <u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
I write to you all today as I am facing major problems
with a language (Ainu) that I am looking at for one of
my classes on Linguistic typology.<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u></u> <u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
The problem in question is, Ainu is attested to having
3 separate alignment systems (Bugaeva, 2015) that are
determined by pronouns. Alignment in Ainu is shown
through verbal affixing alone, with the following
distribution:<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u></u> <u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
1PL, 4SG/’Indefinite person’ are marked using
tripartite alignment:<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u></u> <u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u>1PL:<u></u><u></u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
S ci-<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
A -as<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
O un-<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u></u> <u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u>4SG:<u></u><u></u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
S a-<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
A -an<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
O i-<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u></u> <u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
1SG is marked with nom/acc alignment:<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u></u> <u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
S/A ku-<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
O -en<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u></u> <u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
Lastly, 2SG, 2PL, and 3SG have ‘neutral’ alignment
(so none at all, more so just indexing) in the
following way:<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u></u> <u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u>2SG:<u></u><u></u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
S/A/O e-<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u></u> <u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u>2PL:<u></u><u></u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
S/A/O eci-<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u></u> <u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<u>3SG:<u></u><u></u></u></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
S/A/O <span>∅-<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-family:"Cambria Math",serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-family:"Cambria Math",serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="font-family:"Cambria Math",serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white">As far as my understanding goes, not only is
the distribution in Ainu very uncommon, but the
motivations for these groups and systems to arise
seem unclear.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<font color="#202122"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">With these systems it allows
me to assume there is a hierarchy as follows:</span></font></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<font color="#202122"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<font color="#202122"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">1PL/4SG -> 1SG ->
2SG/2PL/3SG</span></font></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<font color="#202122"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<font color="#202122"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">As far as I am aware this
would be extremely rare and hard to explain.</span></font></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white">Has anyone else encountered anything similar
in other languages? Is there perhaps a diachronic
explanation that leads to this morphological
complexity?<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white">As an undergraduate I am at my wits end!<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white">Thank you all very much and as the years
progress, I hope I can become more active and
knowledgeable on this thread!<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span style="color:rgb(32,33,34);background-color:white">James Wheate.</span></div>
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Rudolfstr. 4<br>
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<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></p>
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