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--></style></head><body lang=JA link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0mm 0mm 0mm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='color:black'>送信元</span></b><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>: </span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> (Dmitri Sitchinava <mitrius@gmail.com> </span><span style='color:black'>の代理</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>)<br></span><b><span style='color:black'>日付</span></b><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>: </span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>2023</span><span style='color:black'>年</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>6</span><span style='color:black'>月</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>1</span><span style='color:black'>日</span><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'>木曜日</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> 19:06<br><b>Cc: </b>LINGTYP LINGTYP <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br></span><b><span style='color:black'>件名</span></b><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>: </span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Re: [Lingtyp] incipient ergativity conditioned by number of A<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>In Ukraine (both in Ukrainian and in Russian) a popular journalistic construction since 2019 has been <i>U Zelenskoho zajavyly '</i>At Zelensky's (impersonal) they-said'<i>, </i>implying that Zelensky was not quite an independent actor and his spokesmen had a kind of collective institutional agentivity. Later it was extended to <i>u Putina </i>etc., being now a default construction for spokesmen.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Dmitri<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Am Do., 1. Juni 2023 um 09:56 Uhr schrieb Silvia Luraghi <<a href="mailto:luraghi@unipv.it" target="_blank">luraghi@unipv.it</a>>:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0mm 0mm 0mm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0mm'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Dear David,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>I agree with Chrsitian and Sebastian, this is a way of deindividualizing the agent and rather than with number it is connected with collective/institutional referents. In Italian you find the same, especially in journalistic discourse, e.g. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Nel PD ci si interroga sulla linea da tenere<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>in_the PD one REFL asks on_the line to keep<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>"In the Democratic Party they wonder what line they should adopt"<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Interestingly, this is ok with collective nouns that are morphologically singular but with nouns that are morphologically plural you cannot use plural articles, you must treat them as if they were not count plurals:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Nella Lega ci si interroga ... OK<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>in_the(SG) Lega(SG) ...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>*Nei Fratelli d'Italia ci si interroga... (impossible)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>in_the(PL) Fratelli(PL) d'Italia<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>In Fratelli d'Italia ci si interroga... OK (here the preposition in comes without the article)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Silvia<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Silvia Luraghi<br>Università di Pavia<br>Dipartimento di Studi Umanistici, Sezione di Linguistica <br>Strada Nuova 65<br>I-27100 Pavia<br>tel.: +39/0382/984685<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Web page personale: <a href="https://studiumanistici.unipv.it/?pagina=docenti&id=68" target="_blank">https://studiumanistici.unipv.it/?pagina=docenti&id=68</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Il giorno gio 1 giu 2023 alle ore 09:18 Sebastian Nordhoff <<a href="mailto:sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de" target="_blank">sebastian.nordhoff@glottotopia.de</a>> ha scritto:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0mm 0mm 0mm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0mm'><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Dear David,<br>in both Sinhala and Sri Lanka Malay, institutional actors (government, <br>board, committee, police) are marked with the instrumental. I suppose <br>that your Likud examples would get the instrumental as well in those <br>languages.<br><br>You write that [number] seems to be the relevant factor. But if you have <br>"one baker" and "thirteen bakers", you would probably not get the <br>difference. So it might be more the feature [+institutional] or <br>[+collective], as you say.<br><br>When looking into the instrumental in the Sri Lankan languages, I was <br>wondering whether British English agreement ("The committee have <br>discussed ... ") and Dutch feminine institutional reference ("het <br>kabinet en haar beleid" 'the cabinet[N] and her[F] policies') are <br>actually triggered by the same semantics. I found that interesting since <br>this is a grammatical fact that relies on the society having some kind <br>of bureaucracy, which poses interesting questions with regard to innateness.<br>Best wishes<br>Sebastian<br><br><br><br><br>On 6/1/23 06:43, David Gil wrote:<br>> Hi all,<br>> <br>> Is anybody familiar with a case of split ergativity in which the <br>> conditioning factor is the number of the Agent NP?<br>> <br>> My reason for asking:in Hebrew, especially in a journalese register, in <br>> a transitive A V P construction, when the A is semantically plural, <br>> typically denoting a collective entity, it is often marked with the <br>> locative proclitic /b-/ while the verb takes plural subject agreement in <br>> an apparent impersonal construction.For example, in a sentence about the <br>> Likud political party:<br>> <br>> balikud muxanim lidħot et hamahapexa hamišpatit ...<br>> <br>> LOC-Likud prepare:3.PLM INF-postpone ACC DEF-revolution <br>> DEF-legislative.F ...<br>> <br>> idiomatically: 'The Likud is willing to postpone the legislative <br>> revolution ...'<br>> <br>> literally: 'In the Likud they're willing to postpone the legislative <br>> revolution ...'<br>> <br>> Such constructions are extremely widespread in journalistic writing.The <br>> above example, part of a newspaper headline, is followed by a string of <br>> several clauses all exhibiting the same construction, each beginning <br>> with a semantically plural agent marked with locative /b-:/ 'in the <br>> ruling party', 'in closed rooms', 'in the other side', etc. <br>> [<a href="https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/bk5kubsin#autoplay" target="_blank">https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/bk5kubsin#autoplay</a>]<br>> <br>> In the above construction, the locative proclitic /b-/ seems to be <br>> approaching the function of an ergative marker, albeit a rather atypical <br>> one: in particular, when the P is definite, as in the above example, it <br>> is marked with the definite direct object, thereby retaining accusative <br>> alignment.<br>> <br>> I wonder whether anybody has come across similar constructions, in which <br>> an incipient or apparent ergative case marking system is licensed by <br>> number (rather than by more commonly-cited features such as aspect or <br>> person).<br>> <br>> Thanks,<br>> <br>> David<br>> <br>> <br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Lingtyp mailing list<br>> <a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>> <a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>Lingtyp mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br><a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>_______________________________________________<br>Lingtyp mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br><a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" target="_blank">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>_______________________________________________ Lingtyp mailing list Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></html>