<div dir="ltr">I've worked on the recently extinct genetic isolate Yahgan from Tierra del Fuego for the past quarter of a century. It had a simple causative tu:- (colon marks the tenseness of the vowel preceding it) and a permissive-causative u:-, and other voice prefixes containing both. It also had two lexemes used in periphrastic causatives wvshta:gu: (v schwa, sh shibilant voiceless fricative) 'work,do, make, manufacture, create, labor, complete, accomplish, act' and a:kina 'do, make, work, capture, catch, get back, retake'. The difference between them is that wvshta:gu: appears to be used where something NEW is made or done versus a:kina, where the former state is restored (so anti-entropic?). Based on the fact that most of the grammatical affixes still have full lexical antecedents I'd speculate that split between the morphological and lexical/periphrastic causatives was still in play when the language became moribund decades ago. So maybe a language has to 'choose' at some point, and Yahgan hadn't done so yet when it became extinct?<div><br></div><div>Jess Tauber</div></div><div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br><table style="border-top:1px solid #d3d4de"><tr><td style="width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a href="http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail" target="_blank"><img src="https://s-install.avcdn.net/ipm/preview/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png" alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"></a></td><td style="width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:#41424e;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Virus-free.<a href="http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail" target="_blank" style="color:#4453ea">www.avg.com</a></td></tr></table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1"></a></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 3:57 PM Neil Myler <<a href="mailto:myler@bu.edu">myler@bu.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear Juergen,<div>isiXhosa (Nguni, Bantu) is a counter-example. These examples come from a joint paper by me and Zoliswa Mali that came out in<i> Syntax</i> a couple of years ago (the bolding highlights an alternation in the marking of the causee that plays an important role in the paper; numerals in the glosses are for noun classes):</div><div><br></div><div><img src="cid:ii_lim4o02b0" alt="Screenshot 2023-06-07 at 3.53.39 PM.png" width="509" height="181"><br></div><div><img src="cid:ii_lim4oier1" alt="Screenshot 2023-06-07 at 3.54.04 PM.png" width="509" height="66"><br></div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Neil</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 2:57 PM Juergen Bohnemeyer <<a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">jb77@buffalo.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all – It seems that languages with fully productive morphological causatives tend to lack syntactic (a.k.a. periphrastic/analytical) causatives. By ‘fully productive’, I mean crucially that the causative marker can be applied to already
transitive (and thus semantically causative) bases, and therefore can be used to express indirect causation. Examples of languages that have fully productive morphological causatives in this sense and lack periphrastic causative constructions include Chuvash,
Japanese, Hindi/Urdu, and Shawi (Cahuapanan, Peru). <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Two questions about the above generalization:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.75in">
<u></u><span>(i)<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><u></u>Are there counterexamples?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.75in">
<u></u><span>(ii)<span style="font:7pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span><u></u>Are there statements of this generalization in the literature?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks! – Juergen<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
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Web: </span><span><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:rgb(5,99,193)">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
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(Leonard Cohen) </span><span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>-- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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