<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">Hi Jürgen,<div>What Guillaume talked about in Japhug is true about many Tibeto-Burman languages, with the prefix being cognate (going back even to Proto-Sino-Tibetan) but the form used in the analytical construction often not being cognate. In many languages the prefix is no longer productive but retained in some form in certain lexicalized forms. Here are two papers that talk about this:</div><div><div><br></div><div>LaPolla, Randy J. 1994. Parallel grammaticalizations in Tibeto-Burman: Evidence of Sapir’s ‘drift’. Linguistics of the Tibeto-Burman Area 17.1: 61-</div><div>80.</div><div>https://randylapolla.info/Papers/LaPolla_1994_Parallel_Grammaticalizations_in_Tibeto-Burman_-_Evidence_of_Sapirs_Drift.pdf</div></div><div><br><div>LaPolla, Randy J. 2017. Overview of Sino-Tibetan Morphosyntax. In Graham Thurgood and Randy J. LaPolla (eds.), The Sino-Tibetan Languages,</div><div>Second edition, 40-69. London and New York. Routledge. </div><div>https://randylapolla.info/Papers/LaPolla_2017_ST_Morphosyntax_Overview-draft.pdf </div><div><br></div><div>All the best,</div><div>Randy </div><div dir="ltr">Sent from my phone</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On 8 Jun 2023, at 12:06 PM, Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77@buffalo.edu> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Thanks, Kofi! Van Valin (2005: 186-191) discusses a similar contrast in French, illustrated by _<i>laisser manger</i>_ ‘let eat’ vs. _<i>faire manger</i>_ ‘feed’. In that case, both complements are nonfinite,
but _<i>faire manger</i>_ behaves as a complex predicate (a ‘nuclear-layer juncture’ in RRG terms), with a single shared object following both verbs. So as in your example, the construction used for the more indirect scenario is more complex than the one used
for the more direct (or rather less indirect, as there is semantically still a causee involved) scenario.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Best – Juergen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Van Valin, R. Jr. (2005). Exploring the syntax-semantics interface. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
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Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
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There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Kofi Yakpo <kofi@hku.hk><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:36 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] A generalization about morphological and syntactic causatives<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Dear Juergen,</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">A further complicating factor is probably the gradient nature of morphological vs. periphrastic causatives and associated meanings. Pichi (African Caribbean English Lexifier
Creole, Equatorial Guinea) has two periphrastic causatives. </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">In (1) The causative event is expressed in two
<i>finite</i><b> </b>clauses rather than in a main clause. The subordinate clause of effect is introduced by a subjunctive complementizer and the causee may only be expressed as the subject of the subjunctive (effect) clause; (2) involves argument sharing and
deranking - the causee NP is the syntactic object of the main predicate and simultaneously the notional subject of the
<i>non-finite</i> subordinate (effect) clause predicate (<a href="https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/85">https://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/85</a>; p. 365-370):</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">(1)
<i>à mék mék é ch</i></span><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">ɔ</span></i><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">́p</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> 1sg.sbj make sbjv 3sg.sbj eat</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> 'I made her/him eat' [direct or indirect causation]</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">(2)<i> à mék=àm ch</i></span><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">ɔ</span></i><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">́p</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> 1sg.sbj make=3sg.obj eat</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> 'I made her/him eat.' [direct causation]</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">@Sebastian Dom</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">: maybe the syntactic causative in Kagulu developed to signal (a degree of) indirect
causation and then largely displaced morphological causation? </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Cheers,</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Kofi</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#666666">————</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#666666">Dr Kofi Yakpo • Associate Professor </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#666666">Chair of </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="http://www.linguistics.hku.hk/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#6FA8DC">Linguistics</span></a></span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#666666"> • </span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><a href="http://arts.hku.hk/" target="_blank"><span style="color:#6FA8DC">University
of Hong Kong</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#666666">My publications @ </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="https://zenodo.org/search?page=1&size=20&q=yakpo&sort=-publication_date" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#6FA8DC">zenodo</span></a> </span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#666666">• </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="http://hub.hku.hk/cris/rp/rp01715" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#6FA8DC">My
Page</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#666666">Recently published:</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.690593" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#6FA8DC">Creole prosodic systems are areal, not simple</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="https://zenodo.org/record/5651783" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#6FA8DC">Social entrenchment influences the amount of areal borrowing</span></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="https://doi.org/10.1080/14790718.2021.1978453" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#6FA8DC">Unidirectional multilingual convergence</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="https://zenodo.org/record/6375868" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#6FA8DC">Two types of language contact involving English Creoles</span></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Thu, Jun 8, 2023 at 8:30 AM Mark Donohue <<a href="mailto:mhdonohue@gmail.com" target="_blank">mhdonohue@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Add Austronesian languages, at least those in Taiwan and Sulawesi, to the list of languages with both 'fully productive morphological causatives' + syntactic causatives.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Examples:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Tukang Besi (Southeast Sulawesi):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">No-pa-manga-‘e na ana te osimpu<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">3R-CAUS-eat-3P NOM child CORE young.coconut<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">‘She made the child eat the young coconut.’<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">No-karajaa-‘e kua no-manga te osimpu na ana<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">3R-make-3P COMP 3R-eat CORE young.coconut NOM child<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">‘She made the child eat the young coconut.’<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Rukai (Taiwan)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">o-poa-lra-iline apaa-dhe’enge<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Dyn.Fin-make-1S.Nom-3S.Obl Rec:Caus-Dyn.NFin:meet<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">dhipolo la taotao.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Dhipolo and Taotao<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">‘I introduced Dhipolo to Taotao.’ (Lit: ‘I made Dhipolo and Taotao meet.’)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">apaa-dhe’enge-lra-iline taotao la dhipolo.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Recip:Caus-Dyn.NFin-meet-1S.Nom-3P.Obl Taotao and Dhipolo<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">‘I introduced Taotao to Dhipolo.’<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">-Mark<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">(</span><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#202122">Zeitoun, Elizabeth (2007). <i>A Grammar of Mantauran (Rukai)</i>. Language and Linguistics Monograph Series A4-2.
Taipei: Institute of Linguistics, Academia Sinica)</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Thu, 8 Jun 2023 at 06:25, Guillaume Jacques <<a href="mailto:rgyalrongskad@gmail.com" target="_blank">rgyalrongskad@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear Juergen,<br>
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Japhug (<a href="http://langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295" target="_blank">langsci-press.org/catalog/book/295</a>) is a counterexample, it<br>
has a very productive causative prefix sɯ-/z- (phonologically<br>
conditioned allomorphs) which can be applied to loanwords from Tibetan<br>
and even from Chinese, and occurs on transitive verbs<br>
(<a href="https://paperhive.org/documents/items/Q7EaSdGqQ2jb?a=p:863" target="_blank">https://paperhive.org/documents/items/Q7EaSdGqQ2jb?a=p:863</a>), but at<br>
the same time there are periphrastic causative constructions, for<br>
instance with the verb βzu "make"<br>
(<a href="https://paperhive.org/documents/items/Q7EaSdGqQ2jb?a=p:1378" target="_blank">https://paperhive.org/documents/items/Q7EaSdGqQ2jb?a=p:1378</a>).<br>
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Guillaume<br>
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Le mer. 7 juin 2023 à 20:57, Juergen Bohnemeyer <<a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" target="_blank">jb77@buffalo.edu</a>> a écrit :<br>
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> Dear all – It seems that languages with fully productive morphological causatives tend to lack syntactic (a.k.a. periphrastic/analytical) causatives. By ‘fully productive’, I mean crucially that the causative marker can be applied to already transitive (and
thus semantically causative) bases, and therefore can be used to express indirect causation. Examples of languages that have fully productive morphological causatives in this sense and lack periphrastic causative constructions include Chuvash, Japanese, Hindi/Urdu,
and Shawi (Cahuapanan, Peru).<br>
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> Two questions about the above generalization:<br>
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> (i) Are there counterexamples?<br>
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> (ii) Are there statements of this generalization in the literature?<br>
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> Thanks! – Juergen<br>
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> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
> Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
> University at Buffalo<br>
><br>
> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
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><br>
> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)<br>
><br>
> There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In<br>
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