<div dir="ltr">Are there any languages in which the F-word, like French pas, rien, etc., has (a) completely lost its vehemence and (b) become a garden-variety negator?</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 9:51 AM Michael Daniel <<a href="mailto:misha.daniel@gmail.com">misha.daniel@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">This is true. <div><br></div><div>But I think my second Russian example, where 'penis' means nothing, can qualify; and also examples are possible like 'penis it knows' for 'I don't / no one knows', where no regular negative particle is used. This is pretty common in collquial communication, so much so that it made it to a rare phenomenon of acronym in spoken language - хз [хəze] 'I don't know; this is unclear' from lit. penis knows.<div><br></div><div><div>Michael</div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">вт, 13 июн. 2023 г. в 15:44, Ian Joo <<a href="mailto:ian_joo@nucba.ac.jp" target="_blank">ian_joo@nucba.ac.jp</a>>:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Dear all,<div><br></div><div>technically speaking, I think Pun Ho Lui’s original question was swear words acting as negators, not just intensifiers.</div><div>So phrases like “I don’t know shit” wouldn’t apply, only those like “I know shit” (intended meaning: I don’t know anything).</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Ian<br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>13/6/2023 오후 3:37, Eitan Grossman <<a href="mailto:eitan.grossman@mail.huji.ac.il" target="_blank">eitan.grossman@mail.huji.ac.il</a>> 작성:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr">I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but Jespersen already discussed this phenomenon to some extent in his 1917 monograph on negation, and it was extended by many including Ross & Postal, Horn, and others (e.g., 'squatitive negation' as in 'You don't know doodly-squat.')<br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>For the sake of typology, some of the Hebrew terms for penis (mainly <i>zayin</i> and <i>zibbi</i>, the latter a loanword) also show the behavior mentioned by Pun Ho Lui, Misha, and others.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 4:23 PM Lewis C Howe <<a href="mailto:chowe@uga.edu" target="_blank">chowe@uga.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Hi Pun Ho Lui and all,<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">These patterns are relatively common in Romance Languages. For instance, in Spanish you can find the following:<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">(No) me importa un(a) coño|pedo|chingada|polla|etc.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">NEG 1sg.ACC matter.3sg a vagina|fart|fuck|dick|etc.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">‘I don’t care at all.’<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">There are a number of lexical options, which, not surprisingly, are quite dialectally diverse. The preverbal negation is optional, and, for some speakers in some collocations, may in fact be dispreferred.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Following up on the comment about <i>đavola </i>("devil") in BCMS/Serbo-Croation, there’s a similar construction in Romance (illustrated below in Spanish) that (typically) involves wh-words. This construction also includes similarly taboo
lexical options—e.g., <i>carajo </i>‘shit’, <i>cojones </i>‘testicles’. These types of constructions, at least for English, are described by Pesetsky (1987) as “Aggressively Non-D-Linked” wh-phrases.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">¿Qué demonios quieres?<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">What devils want.2sg<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">‘What the hell do you want?’<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Best wishes,<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Chad Howe<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Pesetsky, D. 1987. Wh-in-situ: Movement and unselective binding. In
<i>The representation of (in)definiteness</i>, ed. by Eric Reuland and Alice G. B. ter Meulen, 98-130. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div id="m_1024092755050131680m_-5585602351573308350m_-4921856047929884896m_-5383011396623242646mail-editor-reference-message-container">
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<div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><b><span style="font-size:12pt">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12pt">Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> on behalf of Michael Daniel <<a href="mailto:misha.daniel@gmail.com" target="_blank">misha.daniel@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, June 13, 2023 at 9:01 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Stefan Savić <<a href="mailto:stefansavicz@gmail.com" target="_blank">stefansavicz@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Swearwords as a negator and/or minimizer: a cross-linguistic perspective<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span style="color:rgb(186,12,47)">[EXTERNAL SENDER - PROCEED CAUTIOUSLY]</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Dear Pun Ho Lui,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal">In Russian strong speech, 'penis' is used as a non-referential NP in different type of emphatic negation; including constructions very similar to what you quote. See for examples, some way below. Note that "ни" is a negative particle distinct
from regular negative "не" and commonly (though not exclusively) used under the scope of clausal negation; I am not sure how to gloss it.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Sincerely,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Michael Daniel<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">он ни хуя не знает<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">he.nom not penis-Sg.Gen not knows<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">'he does not know anything at all'<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">хуй тебе, а не деньги<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">penis.Sg.Nom you.sg-Dat, and not money<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">'You are not getting anything, you are not (instead of) getting any money'<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">ни хуя (подобн-ого)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">not penis-Sg.Gen (similar-N.Sg.Gen)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">'Nothing like that at all!'<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">вт, 13 июн. 2023 г. в 14:45, Stefan Savić <<a href="mailto:stefansavicz@gmail.com" target="_blank">stefansavicz@gmail.com</a>>:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Dear Pun Ho Lui, Dear All, <u></u><u></u></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">In BCMS/Serbocroatian one can also use the genitive singular form
<i>đavola </i>("devil") in the same function, now hardly considered a swear word per se, but once it definitely was (along with other religious terms). As a matter of fact, in numerous such instances, the nominative singular
<i>kurac</i> is often replaceable with the genitive singular <i>đavola </i>(whereby the latter sounds considerably milder than the former).
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Best,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Stefan<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 at 14:35, Pun Ho Lui <<a href="mailto:luiph001@gmail.com" target="_blank">luiph001@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1pt;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Dear linguists, <u></u><u></u></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Swearwords/taboo words can function as a negator (1) or minimizer/“squatitive” (2):<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">(1) Cantonese <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"> <span style="font-family:"MS Gothic"">我</span> <span style="font-family:"MS Gothic"">撚</span> <span style="font-family:"MS Gothic"">知</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"> 1sg dick know<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"> ‘I don’t know.’<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">(2) I learn fuck all/ shit.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">‘I learn nothing.’<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Other languages with these pattens include:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">- Russian <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">- German <i>einen Teufel </i>‘a devil’<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">- Swedish <i>så fan Heller</i><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><i>- </i>French <i>mon cul</i> ‘my ass’ (?)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">- Polish <i>chuj </i>‘dick’; <i>gówno </i>’shit’<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">- Serbian <i>kurac </i>‘penis'<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">- Croatian <i>kurac ‘penis’</i><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">- Colloquail Finnish “aggressive mood”<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">These examples are provided in: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/groups/lingtyp/permalink/6751622964867235/" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/groups/lingtyp/permalink/6751622964867235/</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">I am wondering if there are other languages performing similar constructions. If so, is the any requirement for using them.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Thank you.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Warmest,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Pun Ho Lui<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">John</div>