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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear Jussi – I see that you’re getting as many opinions as you’re getting responses
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Apple Color Emoji"">😊</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> But I’m going to add mine, simply because none of the other users seems to have mentioned what I see as the primary issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Fwiw., from my point of view, the key question here is not finiteness, but semantics. Let’s assume that _<i>-ne</i>_ does indeed have a single “semantic meaning” (as opposed to pragmatic implicatures arising
from it in various contexts), and that meaning is, as you say, epistemic modality.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">The question then arises whether one wishes to conflate the notional categories (a.k.a. comparative concepts) of ‘mood’ and ‘modality’ or to keep them distinct. Personally, I prefer the latter, since they
are quite distinct conceptually and in my experience, their expression tends to be in first approximation independent, or at least distinct, in the languages of the world. But, again, this is a consideration purely of utility – there’s no correct or incorrect
answer. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">If I were to propose typologically useful working definitions for the comparative concepts ‘mood’ and ‘modality’, I would offer something like this:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Modality classifies propositions into those that are necessarily (not) true and those that are potentially (not) true. (Non-modalized speech acts simply
steer clear of this classification.) This distinction can be conceptualized in terms of quantification over possible worlds, force dynamics, or however else one sees fit. And to say that a proposition is necessarily or possibly true requires some, usually
contextually determined, set of assumptions against which the modalized speech act is evaluated. In the case of epistemic modality, that set of assumptions is the sum of what the speaker purports to know.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Mood classifies utterances in terms of whether their ‘topic situation’ is (assumed to be) part of the interlocutors’ actual world (the speech situation
and its past) or not (the speech situation’s future and counterfactual past situations). An utterance’s topic situation is the situation it makes a statement or promise, asks a question, issues a directive, etc., about.
<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Now, I’m not aware of any theory of finiteness I’d be ready to endorse, including my own. (I guess you could take this this along the lines of the famous Groucho Marx quip that he’d never join a club that
would accept him as a member.) But, based on the above characterization, modality is a propositional operator, whereas mood is a speech-act-level operator. And since propositions are the objects/arguments of speech acts, we should expect to generally find
modality further “down” in the syntactic structure, i.e., closer to the lexical content, than mood.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">So this means that if _<i>-ne</i>_ is indeed a modal operator, I would consider its showing up in nonfinite projections less surprising than if it were a mood operator.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Lastly, none of the above should be construed as a criticism of the traditional terminological practice of Finnish linguistics. The cognancy of _<i>modal</i>_ and _<i>modus</i>_ alone makes it almost unreasonable
to expect terminological traditions to be answerable to the semantic factoids cited above. Particularly when paired with paucity of thorough and typologically sensitive semantic work on the issues.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">HTH! – Juergen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
<br>
There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">-- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Jussi Ylikoski <jussi.ylikoski@utu.fi><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 20:22<br>
<b>To: </b>lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[Lingtyp] Moods and non-finites?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Dear typologists,</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">I have a question about the notion of
<i>mood</i> as a grammatical, and more specifically, morphological category. It should not have come as a surprise to me that on a general, language-specific level, various dictionaries of linguistic terms define and characterize
<i>mood</i> quite vaguely, but I am still surprised to see how difficult it is to find explicit statements on whether or not morphological moods are generally limited to finite verb forms or not.</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Put concretely, I am wondering whether it is conceptually (or typologically) odd or natural to regard the Finnish "potential mood" marker -<i>ne</i>- a mood, as its use is not strictly limited
to finite verb forms (2) but can also attested in some – and only some – non-finites such as the present participle (2), in contrast to the unmarked or "indicative" participle seen in (3). The semantic function of the potential in -<i>ne</i>- is that of epistemic
modality:</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:Courier;color:black">(1) Remontti valmistu-ne-e elokuu-ssa.</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:Courier;color:black"> renovation be.completed-POT-3SG August-INE</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:Courier;color:black"> 'The renovation will probably be completed in August.'</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:Courier;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="FI" style="font-family:Courier;color:black">(2) elokuu-ssa valmistu-ne-va remontti</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:Courier;color:black"> August-INE be.completed-POT-PTCP.PRS renovation</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:Courier;color:black"> 'the renovation that will probably be completed in August'</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:Courier;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:Courier;color:black">(3) elokuu-ssa valmistu-va remontti</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:Courier;color:black"> August-INE be.completed-PTCP.PRS renovation</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:Courier;color:black"> 'the renovation that will be completed in August'</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">In light of the Finnish (and more generally Uralic) grammatical tradition, participials seen in (2) do not and cannot exist, but if they do as it seems, inflectional moods do not behave like
this, and the morpheme -<i>ne</i>- in <i>valmistu-ne-va</i> should probably be analyzed as a kind of derivational affix instead.</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">I would be interested to know whether linguists outside the Finnish tradition see it as problematic or unproblematic to call the morpheme -<i>ne</i>- in
<i>valmistu-ne-va</i> (2) a participle a marker of a morphological (inflectional) mood. Are there any parallels to forms like this, and possibly studies on these issues?</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="FI" style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span lang="FI" style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Best regards,</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:115%">
<span lang="FI" style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black">Jussi</span><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><a href="https://users.utu.fi/jumyli/">https://users.utu.fi/jumyli/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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