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<p>It seems to me that it is a question about terminology (rather
than about substance) whether one "regards" the Finnish Potential
Mood marker <i>-ne</i> as a mood marker or not. "Regarding X as
Y" really is the same as "calling X by the name Y".</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>So how do we want to use the term "mood" in typology and general
linguistics? It seems to me that we want to treat some semantic
domains in a privileged way, by saying that "language L inflects
for domain D".</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>We don't treat participles or causatives as privileged in this
way (we wouldn't say that Finnish "inflects for participle", or
"inflects for causative"), and for the most part, this way of
talking is limited to the following domains:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>case, person, number, gender, tense, mood, evidentiality,
polarity</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>These privileged domains are also called "inflectional
categories" (or "inflectional features"), but I think that it's
probably an accident of history that they have been treated in
this special way (see my forthcoming paper on inflection and
derivation as traditional comparative concepts:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/007006">https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/007006</a>).</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I don't think it's in any way "problematic" that the Finnish
participial suffix <i>-va </i>can follow the mood suffix <i>-ne</i>,
but it may well be that such an affix order occurs quite rarely.
In any event, there is no terminological or conceptual problem
here. Finnish is a bit different from Latin, but so are many other
languages.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Martin<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 13.07.23 14:21, Jussi Ylikoski
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:9f991696fd3a47f6a8a284390db40534@utu.fi">
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif" lang="FI">Dear
typologists,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif" lang="FI"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif" lang="FI">I
have a question about the notion of
<i>mood</i> as a grammatical, and more specifically,
morphological category. It should not have come as a
surprise to me that on a general, language-specific
level, various dictionaries of linguistic terms define
and characterize
<i>mood</i> quite vaguely, but I am still surprised to
see how difficult it is to find explicit statements on
whether or not morphological moods are generally limited
to finite verb forms or not.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif" lang="FI"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif" lang="FI">Put
concretely, I am wondering whether it is conceptually
(or typologically) odd or natural to regard the Finnish
"potential mood" marker -<i>ne</i>- a mood, as its use
is not strictly limited to finite verb forms (2) but can
also attested in some – and only some – non-finites such
as the present participle (2), in contrast to the
unmarked or "indicative" participle seen in (3). The
semantic function of the potential in -<i>ne</i>- is
that of epistemic modality:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif" lang="FI"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:Courier" lang="FI">(1) Remontti
<span style=""> </span>valmistu-ne-e <span style=""> </span>elokuu-ssa.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:Courier" lang="FI"><span style="">
</span><span style=""> </span>renovation
be.completed-POT-3SG August-INE</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:Courier" lang="FI"><span style="">
</span>'The renovation will probably be completed in
August.'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:Courier" lang="FI"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:Courier" lang="FI">(2) elokuu-ssa
valmistu-ne-va
<span style=""> </span>remontti</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:Courier" lang="FI"><span style="">
</span>August-INE be.completed-POT-PTCP.PRS renovation</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:Courier" lang="FI"><span style="">
</span><span style=""> </span>'the renovation that will
probably be completed in August'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:Courier" lang="FI"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:Courier" lang="FI">(3) elokuu-ssa
valmistu-va
<span style=""> </span>remontti</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:Courier" lang="FI"><span style="">
</span>August-INE be.completed-PTCP.PRS renovation</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:Courier" lang="FI"><span style="">
</span><span style=""> </span>'the renovation that will
be completed in August'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif" lang="FI"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif" lang="FI"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif" lang="FI">In
light of the Finnish (and more generally Uralic)
grammatical tradition, participials seen in (2) do not
and cannot exist, but if they do as it seems,
inflectional moods do not behave like this, and the
morpheme -<i>ne</i>- in
<i>valmistu-ne-va</i> should probably be analyzed as a
kind of derivational affix instead.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif" lang="FI"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif" lang="FI">I
would be interested to know whether linguists outside
the Finnish tradition see it as problematic or
unproblematic to call the morpheme -<i>ne</i>- in <i>valmistu-ne-va</i>
(2) a participle a marker of a morphological
(inflectional) mood. Are there any parallels to forms
like this, and possibly studies on these issues?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif" lang="FI"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif" lang="FI">Best
regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif" lang="FI"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height:115%"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt; line-height:115%;
font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif" lang="FI">Jussi</span></p>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Martin Haspelmath
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6
D-04103 Leipzig
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a></pre>
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