<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">Hi Jianming,<div>Thanks for your reply.</div><div><br></div><div>When you say “without a specific context”, you are actually creating two interpretive contexts in your mind to create the two different meanings; there is no such thing as understanding language (or any phenomenon) without creating a context of interpretation. The fact that you can create these two meanings from the same form means there is no voice opposition in the language. The semantics of the referents referred to can influence the interpretation, but that is also not voice, e.g. 老师发了成绩单 [teacher distribute grade sheets] and 学生发了成绩单 [student distribute grade sheets] are normally understood out of specific context as having different transitivity structures, with ’teacher’ as agent, but ‘students' as patient, but this is not voice.</div><div><br></div><div>Y. R. Chao argued that bei and ba are "pre-transitive" markers that help to disambiguate the direction of action, not passive and active markers.He also argued that even in the structure N V N’, the direction of action is not necessarily from the initial N to the N’, and he used the example of ‘dog bite man’. </div><div><br></div><div>If you agree with Chao (and Lü Shuxiang, and me) that Mandarin is topic-comment, not subject-predicate, there is no “basic AVP” order. As Chao said, all clauses are topic comment, though in some cases there is no topic.</div><div><br></div><div>All the best,</div><div>Randy</div><div><div>
<meta charset="UTF-8"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">——</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Professor Randy J. LaPolla</span><span style="font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13.333333015441895px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;">(罗仁地)</span><span style="font-size: 14px;">, PhD FAHA </span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Center for Language Sciences</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Institute for Advanced Studies in Humanities and Social Sciences</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Beijing Normal University at Zhuhai</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">A302, Muduo Building, #18 Jinfeng Road, Zhuhai City</span><span style="font-size: 14px;">, Guangdong</span><span style="font-size: 14px;">, China</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;"><a href="https://randylapolla.info">https://randylapolla.info</a></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">ORCID ID:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color: rgb(73, 74, 76); background-color: white;"><a href="https://orcid.org/0000-0002-6100-6196">https://orcid.org/0000-0002-6100-6196</a> </span></span> </div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 15px;">邮编:519087</span><br style="font-size: 15px;"><span style="font-size: 15px;">广东省珠海市唐家湾镇金凤路18号木铎楼A302</span><br style="font-size: 15px;"><span style="font-size: 15px;">北京师范大学珠海校区</span><br style="font-size: 15px;"><span style="font-size: 15px;">人文和社会科学高等研究院</span><br style="font-size: 15px;"><span style="font-size: 15px;">语言科学研究中心 </span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 28 Jul 2023, at 7:22 AM, Wu Jianming <wu.jianming2011@hotmail.com> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta charset="UTF-8"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB">Dear Randy<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB"> The concept of nouns, verbs, voice, and transitivity indeed involves matching content and forms in language. In Chinese, the expression "chicken not eat" can carry the same meaning as "chicken not eaten" or "chicken not eating" without a specific context. This implies that the active and passive content of voice, which determines how the verb relates to the subject, does exist in Chinese. However, within a known context, the expression forms can be omitted or become redundant.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB"> On the other hand, using constructions like "bei + Agent" or "ba + Patient" provides a better way to encode both the content and forms of voice in Chinese, particularly when necessary. This showcases the flexibility and uniqueness of the language in conveying meaning.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian; text-indent: 12pt;"><span lang="EN-GB">So, in Chinese, when it comes to voice, we indeed have both the content side and the expression side of voice, with constructions like "bei +A" , “ba +P” or the basic AVP order being utilized as needed. But for an isolated NP+VP construction without a context, the active or passive status of the verb is sometimes ambiguous.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian; text-indent: 12pt;"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian; text-indent: 12pt;"><span lang="EN-GB">Regards,</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian; text-indent: 12pt;"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian; text-indent: 12pt;"><span lang="EN-GB">Jianming Wu<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian; text-indent: 12pt;"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian; text-indent: 12pt;"><span lang="EN-GB">Shanghai International Studies University</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB">Sent from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">Mail</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>for Windows</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: SimSun;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(225, 225, 225) currentcolor currentcolor; border-image: none; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian; border: medium; padding: 0cm;"><b><span lang="EN-GB">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">Randy J. LaPolla</a><br><b>Sent:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>2023</span>年<span lang="EN-GB">7</span>月<span lang="EN-GB">27</span>日<span lang="EN-GB"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>22:04<br><b>To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="mailto:sergeloesov@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">Sergey Loesov</a><br><b>Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a><br><b>Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [Lingtyp] Transitive verbs with both active and passive readings</span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: SimSun;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB">Hi Sergey,</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 12pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB">Y. R. Chao argued that as Mandarin Chinese verbs have no inherent direction of action, a corollary of the topic-comment (not subject predicate) structure of clauses, Mandarin Chinese has no voice distinction (Mandarin Primer, 1948: 35, with his Romanisation replaced by Pinyin and glosses added):</span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB">“An important corollary to this [topic-comment structure-RJL] is that the direction of action in verbs is to be inferred from the context. Thus, in talking about feeding poultry, <i>J</i></span><i><span lang="X-NONE">ı</span></i><i><span lang="X-NONE" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">̄</span><span lang="EN-GB"> bù ch</span></i><i><span lang="X-NONE">ı</span></i><i><span lang="X-NONE" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">̄</span></i><i><span lang="X-NONE"> </span><span lang="EN-GB">le</span></i><span lang="EN-GB"> [chicken NEG eat PFV] means 'The chickens are not eating any more,' but as a reply to a host offering more chicken, the same sentence would mean '(As for) chicken, (I) am not going to eat any more.' Again, <i>Lia</i></span><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">̌</span><span lang="EN-GB">ng-ge rén zuò y</span></i><i><span lang="X-NONE">ı</span></i><i><span lang="X-NONE" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">̄</span><span lang="EN-GB">-ba</span></i><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">̌</span><span lang="EN-GB"> y</span></i><i><span lang="X-NONE">ı</span></i><i><span lang="X-NONE" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">̌</span></i><i><span lang="X-NONE">zi</span></i><span lang="X-NONE"> [two CL people sit one-CL chair]</span><span lang="EN-GB">' Two people sit on one chair' : <i>Y</i></span><i><span lang="X-NONE">ı</span></i><i><span lang="X-NONE" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">̄</span><span lang="EN-GB">-ba</span></i><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">̌</span><span lang="EN-GB"> y</span></i><i><span lang="X-NONE">ı</span></i><i><span lang="X-NONE" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">̌</span></i><i><span lang="X-NONE">zi </span><span lang="EN-GB">zuò lia</span></i><i><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">̌</span><span lang="EN-GB">ng-ge rén</span></i><span lang="EN-GB"> [one-CL chair sit two-CL people] 'One chair seats two people.' In short, there is no distinction of voice in Chinese verbs." </span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Hope this helps.</span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">All the best,</span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">Randy</span></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10.5pt;">——</span><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10.5pt;">Professor Randy J. LaPolla</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;">(罗仁地</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">)</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10.5pt;">, PhD FAHA </span><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10.5pt;">Center for Language Sciences</span><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10.5pt;">Institute for Advanced Studies in Humanities and Social Sciences</span><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10.5pt;">Beijing Normal University at Zhuhai</span><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10.5pt;">A302, Muduo Building, #18 Jinfeng Road, Zhuhai City, Guangdong, China</span><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10.5pt;"><a href="https://randylapolla.info/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">https://randylapolla.info</a></span><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">ORCID ID:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; color: rgb(73, 74, 76); background: white;"><a href="https://orcid.org/0000-0002-6100-6196" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">https://orcid.org/0000-0002-6100-6196</a> </span><span lang="EN-GB" style=""> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt;">邮编:<span lang="EN-GB">519087<br></span>广东省珠海市唐家湾镇金凤路<span lang="EN-GB">18</span>号木铎楼<span lang="EN-GB">A302<br></span>北京师范大学珠海校区<span lang="EN-GB"><br></span>人文和社会科学高等研究院<span lang="EN-GB"><br></span>语言科学研究中心<span lang="EN-GB"> </span></span><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB" style=""><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB"><br><br></span></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB">On 27 Jul 2023, at 5:28 PM, Sergey Loesov <<a href="mailto:sergeloesov@gmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">sergeloesov@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian; line-height: 15.546667px;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Dear colleagues,</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian; line-height: 15.546667px;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Do you know of languages that have past-tense forms of transitive verbs with both active and passive readings? In particular, languages in which the same token can appear as both active and passive, depending on the context?</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian; line-height: 15.546667px;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">This seems to be the case in the unwritten language Modern Western Aramaic, spoken in the Syrian Anti-Lebanon/Kalamoun. Thus,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>ifṯeḥ</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(a Perfect-Resultative verb form) may mean ‘he (has) opened’ and ‘he has been opened/he is opened.’</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></p><div style="margin-bottom: 8pt;"><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian; line-height: 15.546667px;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"> </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian; line-height: 15.546667px;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Thank you very much,</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></p><div style="margin-bottom: 8pt;"><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian; line-height: 15.546667px;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"> </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian; line-height: 15.546667px;"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Sergey</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: DengXian;"><span lang="EN-GB">_______________________________________________<br>Lingtyp mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br><a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a></span></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>