<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">Hi Jürgen and Maria,<div>I just noticed how much what Maria described sounds like Tagalog, where one argument is made topic of the clause, and the other direct argument appears in a possessor phrase with the predicate, which is marked to be oriented towards the topic referent. The topic and the possessor phrase are in apposition, both referential (the possessor phrase can be used alone referentially, with the same reference as the topic), with possible translations like the ones Maria mentioned.</div><div><br></div><div>All the best,</div><div>Randy<br><div>
<meta charset="UTF-8"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">——</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Professor Randy J. LaPolla</span><span style="font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13.333333015441895px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;">（罗仁地)</span><span style="font-size: 14px;">, PhD FAHA </span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Center for Language Sciences</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Institute for Advanced Studies in Humanities and Social Sciences</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Beijing Normal University at Zhuhai</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">A302, Muduo Building, #18 Jinfeng Road, Zhuhai City</span><span style="font-size: 14px;">, Guangdong</span><span style="font-size: 14px;">, China</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;"><a href="https://randylapolla.info">https://randylapolla.info</a></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">ORCID ID:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color: rgb(73, 74, 76); background-color: white;"><a href="https://orcid.org/0000-0002-6100-6196">https://orcid.org/0000-0002-6100-6196</a> </span></span> </div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 15px;">邮编：519087</span><br style="font-size: 15px;"><span style="font-size: 15px;">广东省珠海市唐家湾镇金凤路18号木铎楼A302</span><br style="font-size: 15px;"><span style="font-size: 15px;">北京师范大学珠海校区</span><br style="font-size: 15px;"><span style="font-size: 15px;">人文和社会科学高等研究院</span><br style="font-size: 15px;"><span style="font-size: 15px;">语言科学研究中心 </span></div></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
<div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 21 Aug 2023, at 6:17 PM, Maria Koptjevskaja Tamm <tamm@ling.su.se> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">
Dear Juergen and all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Quite a number of languages parallel Mayan languages in not allowing action nominals to combine with both arguments of the underlying transitive verbs – in my WALS chapter there are 25 languages with this “restricted type” of action nominals (<a href="https://wals.info/feature/62A#2/26.7/149.2">https://wals.info/feature/62A#2/26.7/149.2</a>).
Conspicuously, at least some of them use various valency-lowering strategies for expressing both A and P at the same time without, however, making both of them syntactically dependent on the action nominal, such as “X’s dress-buying” (where the P and the action
nominal form a compound), or “the buying of the dress that X did” or “the buying that X bought the dress”. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Masha<br>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 20 Aug 2023, at 14:29, Yury Lander <<a href="mailto:yulander@yandex.ru">yulander@yandex.ru</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div>Dear Juergen and all,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Returning to languages similar to Mayan languages.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Curiously, it is sometimes said that in Russian event nominalizations are derived only from intransitives and passives. See, for example, the data presented in this paper:</div>
<div>
<div>Rudnev, P., Volkova, A. Case marking in Russian eventive nominalisations revisited. Russian Linguistics 44, 157–175 (2020).
<a href="https://doi.org/10.1007/s11185-020-09228-9" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">
https://doi.org/10.1007/s11185-020-09228-9</a></div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>(I don't have any other references in mind but I am not a specialist...)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best wishes,</div>
<div>Yury</div>
<div> </div>
<div>15.08.2023, 23:48, "Juergen Bohnemeyer" <<a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" rel="noopener noreferrer">jb77@buffalo.edu</a>>:</div>
<blockquote>
<div lang="EN-US" style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-size:11pt">Dear Keren and Masha (and everyone) – Only semi-on-topic, but it appears to be an odd and conspicuous quirk of Mayan languages that they disallow nominalization of transitive verbs. That is, verbs have to be detransitivized
via antipassivization or object incorporation before they can be nominalized. This factoid appears all the more striking once it’s taken into account that Mayan is among the not so many language families that systematically conflate ergative and possessor
marking (via cross–reference morphology). </span></div><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-size:11pt">The constraint against nominalization of transitive verbs certainly holds for the Yucatecan languages, and Robertson (1992) claims that it applies family-wide. Inexplicably, if I understand him correctly, Robertson seems
to have assumed that the constraint is in fact a universal. In actual fact, I’m not aware that anybody has been able to offer a plausible explanation for the constraint.
</span></div><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-size:11pt">I’m curious whether there are known instances of this phenomenon outside Mayan (and also whether there are truly no counterexamples anywhere in Mayan). Maybe Masha’s typology covers it?</span></div><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-size:11pt">Best – Juergen</span></div><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-size:11pt">Robertson, J. S. (1992). The history of tense/aspect/mood/voice in the Mayan verbal complex. Austin, TX: UT Press.</span></div><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 9pt;">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span style="font-size:11pt"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" rel="noopener noreferrer" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="color:#0078d4;font-family:'helvetica';font-size:9pt">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><br>
<span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 9pt;">Web: </span><span style="font-size:11pt"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" rel="noopener noreferrer" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="color:#0563c1;font-family:'helvetica';font-size:9pt">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 9pt;"> </span><br>
<br>
<span style="font-size: 11pt;">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><br>
<br>
<span style="font-family: helvetica; font-size: 9pt;">There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span></div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-size:11pt">-- </span></div>
</div>
</div><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span lang="DE" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span lang="DE" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div style="border-style:solid none none none;border-top-color:#b5c4df;border-width:1pt medium medium medium;padding:3pt 0in 0in 0in"><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in 0in 12pt 0in">
<strong><span style="font-size: 12pt;">From: </span></strong><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="noopener noreferrer">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>>
on behalf of Maria Koptjevskaja Tamm <<a href="mailto:tamm@ling.su.se" rel="noopener noreferrer">tamm@ling.su.se</a>><br>
<strong>Date: </strong>Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 20:18<br>
<strong>To: </strong>Keren Ruditsky <<a href="mailto:krudit@uw.edu" rel="noopener noreferrer">krudit@uw.edu</a>><br>
<strong>Cc: </strong><a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="noopener noreferrer">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a> <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" rel="noopener noreferrer">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
<strong>Subject: </strong>Re: [Lingtyp] Question about nominalized verbs</span></p>
</div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-size:11pt">Dear Keren, </span></div>
<div><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-size:11pt">This is an example of the nominalisation type that I call “Possessive-Accusative” type in my book “Nominalizations” (1993, Routledge) – I can send you a couple of other publications that summarise my typology.</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-size:11pt">All the best,</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-size:11pt">Maria Koptjevskaja Tamm</span></div>
</div>
<div><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-bottom:5pt;margin-top:5pt">
<div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-size:11pt">On 15 Aug 2023, at 17:48, Keren Ruditsky <<a href="mailto:krudit@uw.edu" rel="noopener noreferrer">krudit@uw.edu</a>> wrote:</span></div>
</div><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt">Dear everyone,</span></div>
</div><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt">I am working on a master's thesis and I was wondering about any cases of languages which have nominalized verbs taking two arguments where the argument syntactically closer to the nominalized
verb is marked like the argument of a noun, and the one syntactically further is marked like the argument of a verb.</span></div>
</div><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt">One example of such a language might be Standard Arabic where, as shown below, the subject of a nominalized verb </span><em><span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt">zayd-in</span></em><span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt"> ‘Zayd-GEN’
is marked with genitive case (which is the case used to mark a nominal possessor) while the object </span><em><span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:7pt">c</span><span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt">amr-an </span></em><span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt">‘Amr-ACC’
is marked with accusative case (which is the case used for typical verbal objects).</span></div>
</div><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt">ntiqaad-u zayd-in </span><span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:7pt">c</span><span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt">amr-an</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt">criticizing-NOM Zayd-GEN Amr-ACC</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt">“Zayd’s criticizing Amr” (Fassi Fehri 1993: 223f)</span></div>
</div><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt">Fassi Fehri, Abdelkader. 1993. </span><em><span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt">Issues in the structure of Arabic clauses and</span></em></div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<em><span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt">words</span></em><span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt">. Dordrecht: Kluwer</span></div>
</div>
<div><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span style="font-family:'aptos' , sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt">Thank you,</span></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
<span style="font-family:'times new roman' , serif;font-size:12pt">Keren</span></div>
</div>
<div style="font-family: calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin: 0in;">
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</blockquote>
</div><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
<div><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in 0in 12pt 0in">
<span style="font-size:11pt">Prof. Maria Koptjevskaja Tamm<br>
Dept. of linguistics, Stockholm university, 106 91, Stockholm, Sweden<br>
tel.: +46-8-16 26 20 (office)<br>
<a href="http://www.ling.su.se/tamm" rel="noopener noreferrer">www.ling.su.se/tamm</a><br>
<a href="mailto:tamm@ling.su.se" rel="noopener noreferrer">tamm@ling.su.se</a></span></p>
</div><p style="font-family:'calibri' , sans-serif;font-size:10pt;margin:0in">
<span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></p>
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</div>
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</div>
,
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</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<div>Prof. Maria Koptjevskaja Tamm<br>
Dept. of linguistics, Stockholm university, 106 91, Stockholm, Sweden<br>
tel.: +46-8-16 26 20 (office)<br>
<a href="http://www.ling.su.se/tamm">www.ling.su.se/tamm</a><br>
tamm@ling.su.se<br>
<br>
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