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<p>Hi Randy,</p>
<p>thanks for this report. There would be no point in criticizing
Chao, doubtless an eminent grammarian. However, it does not seem
that his use of the term 'argument' throws much light on Mandarin
grammar. Given your examples, nothing, of course, prevents you
from defining a function die(x, y) such that x is a being touched
by the death and y is the dying being. You then get a multiplicity
of functions die(v,w), where v and w play different roles. I am
not sure that this use of the word 'argument' helps in
understanding how the Chinese constructions work. - On the other
hand, the analysis in terms of topic and comment seems to have
gained foot in the literature. It does not seem to necessarily
involve the function-argument analysis.<br>
</p>
<p>Best, Christian</p>
<p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 22.08.2023 um 18:52 schrieb Randy J.
LaPolla:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:4A5DC618-D614-43EF-A86E-F75030636950@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Hi Christian,
<div><span style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 0cm;
line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US">Y. R. Chao argued that the
arguments in Chinese are like the arguments of a mathematical
function. He argued (1968:69-70) that Chinese clause structure
is simply topic and comment, and “A corollary to the
topic-comment nature of predication is that the direction of
action in an action verb in the predicate need not go outward
from subject to object. Even in an N-V-N´ sequence, such as [</span><span
style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 0cm; line-height:
18.4px;" lang="EN-US">gǒu yǎo rén</span><span
style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 0cm; line-height:
18.4px;" lang="EN-US"> (dog bite man)], it is not always
certain that the action goes outward from N to N´.” (1968:
70). </span></div>
<div>
<p class="Paragraphindented" style="text-indent: 0cm; margin:
0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 16.866667px;"><span
style="line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="Paragraphindented" style="text-indent: 0cm; margin:
0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 16.866667px;"><span
style="line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US">Chao (1955, 1959)
also argued that word order is not determined by, and does
not affect the interpretation of actor vs. non-actor; he
said the clause is analogous to a function in logic: the
argument is an argument of the function, and the truth value
is unaffected by its position in the clause (1959:254). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="Paragraphindented" style="text-indent: 0cm; margin:
0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 16.866667px;"><span
style="line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="Paragraphindented" style="text-indent: 0cm; margin:
0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 16.866667px;"><span
style="line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US">He used the terms
“subject” for the topic and “object” for a reference phrase
(regardless of the semantic role of the referent in the
event), as in Chinese many sorts of semantic roles can
appear after the verb (e.g. 'I eat rice’, ‘I eat
restaurant’, 'I eat big bowl’,' I eat chopsticks’, 'this pot
of rice eats ten people (can feed ten people), ‘He died
father’ = 'he suffered the event of his father dying’,' fall
rain CHANGE OF STATE’ = It is raining’. In all of these
cases he would call the postverbal reference phrase the
“object”.</span></p>
<p class="Paragraphindented" style="text-indent: 0cm; margin:
0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 16.866667px;"><span
style="line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="Paragraphindented" style="text-indent: 0cm; margin:
0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 16.866667px;"><span
style="line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 14.2pt;
font-size: medium; font-family: "Times New Roman",
serif; text-align: justify; text-indent: -14.2pt; line-height:
18.4px;"><span lang="EN-GB">Chao Yuen Ren. 1955[1976]. Notes
on Chinese grammar and logic. In <i>Aspects of Chinese
sociolinguistics: Essays by Yuen Ren Chao,</i> Anwar S.
Dil (ed.), 237-249. Stanford: Stanford University Press.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 14.2pt;
font-size: medium; font-family: "Times New Roman",
serif; text-align: justify; text-indent: -14.2pt; line-height:
18.4px;"><span lang="EN-GB"><span style="text-indent:
-14.2pt;">Chao Yuen Ren. 1959[1976]. How Chinese logic
operates. In</span><span style="text-indent: -14.2pt;"> </span><i
style="text-indent: -14.2pt;">Aspects of Chinese
sociolinguistics: Essays by Yuen Ren Chao,</i><span
style="text-indent: -14.2pt;"> </span><span
style="text-indent: -14.2pt;">Anwar S. Dil (ed.), 250 259.
Stanford: Stanford University Press.</span><span
style="text-indent: -14.2pt;"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 14.2pt;
font-size: medium; font-family: "Times New Roman",
serif; text-align: justify; text-indent: -14.2pt; line-height:
18.4px;"><span lang="EN-GB">Chao Yuen Ren. 1968. <i>A grammar
of spoken Chinese</i>. Berkeley/Los Angeles: University of
California Press.</span></p>
<p class="Paragraphindented" style="text-indent: 0cm; margin:
0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 16.866667px;"><span
style="line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="Paragraphindented" style="text-indent: 0cm; margin:
0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 16.866667px;"><span
style="line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US">All the best,</span></p>
<p class="Paragraphindented" style="text-indent: 0cm; margin:
0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 16.866667px;"><span
style="line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US">Randy</span></p>
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<div><span style="font-size: 14px;">——</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Professor
Randy J. LaPolla</span><span
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Arial; font-size: 13.333333px; orphans: 2;
widows: 2;">（罗仁地)</span><span
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<div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Center for
Language Sciences</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Institute
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Normal University at Zhuhai</span></div>
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<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 22 Aug 2023, at 11:19 PM, Christian Lehmann
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de"><christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de></a> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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charset=UTF-8">
<div>
<p>I am sure that what I am about to do here is completely
inappropriate on this list. In the interest of improving
communication among us, allow me nevertheless to use the
message by Hans Götzsche as support: If you think you
need to use the (mathematical and logical) term
'argument' in a context dealing with grammar, then
please at least make it clear whether an argument
occupies a role in semantic relationality or a syntactic
function in valency. Just one example: English <i>dine</i>
has two semantic roles, the eater and the thing eaten
(which may be called, i.a., agent and patient). It has
one dependent controlled by its valency, taking the form
of a subject and representing the eater. How many
arguments does it have?</p>
<p>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 21.08.2023 um 08:03
schrieb Hans Götzsche:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:EB072503-E747-4E5D-8654-5565EBE08BDD@ikp.aau.dk">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
Begin forwarded message:<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite"><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"> <span
style="font-family: -webkit-system-font,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica,
sans-serif;"><b>From: </b></span><span
style="font-family: -webkit-system-font,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Hans
Götzsche <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:goetzsche@ikp.aau.dk"
moz-do-not-send="true"><goetzsche@ikp.aau.dk></a><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"> <span
style="font-family: -webkit-system-font,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica,
sans-serif;"><b>Subject: </b></span><span
style="font-family: -webkit-system-font,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><b>Re:
[Lingtyp] argument structure</b><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"> <span
style="font-family: -webkit-system-font,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica,
sans-serif;"><b>Date: </b></span><span
style="font-family: -webkit-system-font,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;">21
August 2023 at 15.44.46 CEST<br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"> <span
style="font-family: -webkit-system-font,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica,
sans-serif;"><b>To: </b></span><span
style="font-family: -webkit-system-font,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Vladimir
Panov <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:panovmeister@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><panovmeister@gmail.com></a><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<div>
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break:
after-white-space;">
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-stretch:
normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust:
none; font-kerning: auto;
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Vladimir,</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
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normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust:
none; font-kerning: auto;
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17px;"> <br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-stretch:
normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust:
none; font-kerning: auto;
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font-variant-east-asian: normal;
font-variant-position: normal;
font-feature-settings: normal;
font-optical-sizing: auto;
font-variation-settings: normal;"> allow me a
late comment. I have no remarks on Christian
Lehman’s comment, so I shall only mention that
the notion of ‘argument’ in theoretical
linguistics has, to my knowledge, ‘slipped
through the back door’, via formal approaches,
from mathematics, presumably 1865 (see *), and
later computation theory; meaning</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
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normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust:
none; font-kerning: auto;
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17px;"> <br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-stretch:
normal; font-size: 15px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Georgia; font-size-adjust: none;
font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
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font-optical-sizing: auto;
font-variation-settings: normal; color:
rgb(65, 71, 77); -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(65, 71,
77); background-color: rgb(251, 249, 240);"> <span
style="font-kerning: none">An independent
variable of a function</span><span
style="font-style: normal;
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normal; line-height: normal; font-family:
Helvetica; font-size-adjust: none;
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font-kerning: none;">.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
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normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust:
none; font-kerning: auto;
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-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(65, 71, 77);
background-color: rgb(251, 249, 240);
min-height: 17px;"> <span
style="font-kerning: none"></span><br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-stretch:
normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust:
none; font-kerning: auto;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
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font-variant-numeric: normal;
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font-variation-settings: normal;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(65, 71, 77);
background-color: rgb(251, 249, 240);"> <span
style="font-kerning: none">I first
encountered the technical use of the word <i>argument</i>
at my ‘first course in formal logic’ (many
years ago), and the use of the term in
linguistics is one of the reasons why I
decided to develop ‘my own’ nomenclature in
formal syntax. As is well known the way we,
as linguists, use the myriad of technical
terms depends on what club (guild,
brotherhood, you choose) we are members of,
and taken as a set of words covering all
bits and pieces of (by some called) “the
language sciences” the set is full of
inconsistences, and sometimes
contradictions. Thus, it is not quite true
that “we all use the term “argument
structure””, and I only use the word <i>argument</i>
in the context of formal logic. The aim of
my development mentioned above, which was
published in</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
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normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust:
none; font-kerning: auto;
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-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(65, 71, 77);
background-color: rgb(251, 249, 240);
min-height: 17px;"> <span
style="font-kerning: none"></span><br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-stretch:
normal; font-size: 18px; line-height: normal;
font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto;
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font-variation-settings: normal; color:
rgb(55, 59, 83); -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(65, 71,
77);"> <span style="font-kerning: none;
background-color: #ffffff"><b>Deviational
Syntactic Structures</b></span><span
style="font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-stretch:
normal; font-size: 14px; line-height:
normal; font-size-adjust: none;
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rgb(255, 255, 255);">†</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
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normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust:
none; font-kerning: auto;
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-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(65, 71, 77);
min-height: 17px;"> <br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-stretch:
normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust:
none; font-kerning: auto;
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-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(65, 71, 77);">
was to establish a nomenclature that was both
consistent and would be able to cover all
language domains, from speech sounds to
semantics (but, so far, not pragmatics; which
I prefer to see as a matter of cultural
codifications). This was in line with the well
known and acknowledged Danish tradition in
Theoretical Linguistics (some scholars
remember Rasmus Rask and Karl Verner, to name
a few) and it was based on ideas by Otto
Jespersen and Louis Hjelmslev – as for the
formal systems – and the empirical
achievements of the grammarian Paul
Diderichsen. My suggestions were not all
cheered by Danish linguistists, but the formal
system – comparable to, e.g., <span
style="font-kerning: none; color: rgb(14,
14, 14); background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255); -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(14, 14,
14);"> Montague grammar – was the first and
only amalgamation of Hjelmslev’s <i>Glossematics</i>
and the descriptive tradition of Danish
syntax.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-stretch:
normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust:
none; font-kerning: auto;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;
font-variant-position: normal;
font-feature-settings: normal;
font-optical-sizing: auto;
font-variation-settings: normal; color:
rgb(14, 14, 14); -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(14, 14,
14); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
min-height: 17px;"> <span
style="font-kerning: none"></span><br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-stretch:
normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust:
none; font-kerning: auto;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;
font-variant-position: normal;
font-feature-settings: normal;
font-optical-sizing: auto;
font-variation-settings: normal; color:
rgb(14, 14, 14); -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(14, 14,
14); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> <span
style="font-kerning: none">I once read a
‘Dear Sir’ letter to a Danish newspaper in
which the writer offered the opinion (in
translation): “why don’t everybody use words
the way I do; it would make everything much
easier”. But, of course, adopting such a
view would be impertinent.</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-stretch:
normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust:
none; font-kerning: auto;
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font-variation-settings: normal; color:
rgb(14, 14, 14); -webkit-text-stroke-width:
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min-height: 17px;"> <span
style="font-kerning: none"></span><br>
</div>
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style="font-kerning: none">Best wishes,</span></div>
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style="font-kerning: none"></span><br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
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rgb(16, 128, 129); -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(14, 14,
14);"> <span style="font-kerning: none">Hans
Götzsche (MA,PhD)</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
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14);"> <span style="font-kerning: none"><i>Former
President, NAL</i></span></div>
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rgb(16, 128, 129); -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(14, 14,
14);"> <span style="font-kerning: none"><i>Nordic
Association of Linguists</i></span></div>
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rgb(16, 128, 129); -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(14, 14,
14);"> <span style="font-kerning: none">Emeritus
Associate Professor</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
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0px; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(14, 14,
14);"> <span style="font-kerning: none">Director,
Center for Linguistics</span></div>
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University</span></div>
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14);"> <span style="font-kerning: none">Rendsburggade
14</span></div>
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Aalborg</span></div>
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<span style="text-decoration: underline ;
font-kerning: none"><a
href="mailto:goetzsche@ikp.aau.dk"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">goetzsche@ikp.aau.dk</a></span></div>
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<span style="text-decoration: underline ;
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href="http://www.cfl.hum.aau/"
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min-height: 17px;"> <span
style="font-kerning: none"></span><br>
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0px; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(14, 14,
14);"> <span style="font-kerning: none">Dr
Hans Goetzsche</span></div>
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rgb(52, 33, 192); -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(14, 14,
14);"> <span style="font-kerning: none">Emerito
Professore Universitario</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
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rgb(52, 33, 192); -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(14, 14,
14);"> <span style="font-kerning: none">Via
S. Apollinare 19,2</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
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normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust:
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rgb(52, 33, 192); -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(14, 14,
14);"> <span style="font-kerning: none">36063
Marostica (VI)</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
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normal; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust:
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rgb(52, 33, 192); -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(14, 14,
14);"> <span style="font-kerning: none">ITALIA</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
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min-height: 17px;"> <br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
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normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal;
font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto;
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<span style="font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-stretch:
normal; font-size: 14px; line-height:
normal; font-size-adjust: none;
font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates:
normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
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font-variant-east-asian: normal;
font-variant-position: normal;
font-feature-settings: normal;
font-optical-sizing: auto;
font-variation-settings: normal;">*</span><a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/144141/what-is-the-sense-of-using-word-argument-for-inputs-of-a-function"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/144141/what-is-the-sense-of-using-word-argument-for-inputs-of-a-function</a></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-stretch:
normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Times; font-size-adjust: none;
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normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
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0, 233); -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 233);"> <span
style="text-decoration: underline ;
font-kerning: none"><a
href="https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/144141/what-is-the-sense-of-using-word-argument-for-inputs-of-a-function"
moz-do-not-send="true">terminology - What
is the sense of using word "argument", for
inputs of a function? - English Language
& Usage Stack Exchange<span
style="font-style: normal;
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normal; line-height: normal;
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font-kerning: none; color: rgb(0, 0,
233);"></span></a></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font-style: normal;
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normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal;
font-family: Times; font-size-adjust: none;
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normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
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0, 233); -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 233);"> <span
style="text-decoration: underline ;
font-kerning: none">† <a
href="https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/deviational-syntactic-structures-9781472587961/"
moz-do-not-send="true"> <span
style="font-style: normal;
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normal; line-height: normal;
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font-kerning: none; color: rgb(0, 0,
233);">https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/deviational-syntactic-structures-9781472587961/</span></a></span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 19 Aug 2023, at 12.11, Vladimir
Panov <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:panovmeister@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><panovmeister@gmail.com></a>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Dear colleagues,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have a very general question to
you. We all use the term "argument
structure" and we are used to
semantic labels like A, S or P or
syntactic labels like subject,
direct and indirect object. Many
linguistis, especially those
adhering to "formal" approaches,
would argue that there are also
adjuncts which are not arguments.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is anybody aware of any attempts
to seriously challenge the adequacy
of the very notion of "arguments" in
general? After all, ir seems that
there are languages which do not
encode or encode little the "roles"
of named entities (noun phrases,
pronouns etc.) anywhere in
utterance, especially in colloquial
language, or encode entities like
the addressee rather than the agent
or the patient. My intuition tells
me that there might be such critical
works in the traditions of
usage-based linguistics,
interactional linguistics,
conversation analysis or linguistic
anthropology but I have found very
little. Actually, I've only
discovered the very recent Heine's
book in which he argues for a
broader understanding of argument
structure which includes speech
situation participants - a very
interestinng view. So am looking for
more research in this spirit.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm sorry if it sounds a bit
confusing but if anything like that
comes to you mind I'll be happy if
you can share it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Vladimir Panov</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><i>I condemn the Russian
agression in Ukraine</i></div>
</div>
</div>
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