<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div id="m_-197487478029998947m_-3494078813807167779gmail-:36m"><div id="m_-197487478029998947m_-3494078813807167779gmail-:65t" aria-label="Message Body" role="textbox" aria-multiline="true" style="direction:ltr;min-height:94px" aria-controls=":6xe">Dear Randy,<div><br></div><div>You have cited Y. R. Chao a few times and apparently you adopt the position that Chinese can be sufficiently explained with the notions of topic and comment. I do not think that anyone working on Chinese would deny the importance of the notions of topic and comment in describing and explaining the functioning of Chinese. Also, probably no one working on Chinese would deny the fact that Chinese exhibits flexibility in word order, as shown by the examples you cited in your messages. However, IF your position is that Chinese (essentially) has no argument structure or that word order has no place in Chinese grammar, Jianming (as can be seen from his earlier discussion with you), I, and very likely many others would think that this position is too extreme. Word order (and argument structure) actually has an important place in Chinese grammar. Otherwise, why (1) has to be interpreted as "the cat is/was chasing the dog" (even though in the real world cats are timid and it is more likely for a dog to chase a cat than for a cat to chase a dog), why (2b) is odd or bad (particularly when previous clauses in the same Chinese sentence, as can be viewed by clicking on the link, remain unchanged), or why 'that girl' in (3), not '(the) flower' or 'flowers' in the same sentence, has to be understood as the entity that was consumed? All the three examples contain a transitive verb and in spirit they are all of the "N-V-N’" format. </div><div><br></div><div>(1) Māo zài zhuī gǒu. </div><div> cat Progressive chase dog</div><div> 'The cat is/was chasing the dog.'</div><div><br></div><div>(2) a. ... wǒ hē-le nà bēi guǒzhī. </div><div> I drink-Perfective that cup juice</div><div> '...I drank that cup of juice.' (<a href="https://cn.nytimes.com/style/20170209/the-stir-fried-tomatoes-and-eggs-my-chinese-mother-made/zh-hant/" target="_blank">https://cn.nytimes.com/style/20170209/the-stir-fried-tomatoes-and-eggs-my-chinese-mother-made/zh-hant/</a>)</div><div> b. ??... nà bēi guǒzhī hē-le wǒ. </div><div> that cup juice drink-Perfective I</div><div><br></div><div>(3) Huā chī-le nà nǚhái. (name of a movie)</div><div> flower eat-Perfective that girl</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Chao</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 11:52 PM Randy LaPolla <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" target="_blank">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Thanks Christian,<div>Chao’s point in using the analogy of the function in logic is just to explain how the position of reference phrases in the clause is not related to semantic role, as it is in English, so N-V-N’ (actually [Topic N]-[Comment V-N’]) can be almost any set of semantic roles, depending only on contextual factors for their interpretation, as long as the addressee can create a meaning from it. The examples I gave are only a few of the possibilities. This is also why he argued there is no passive/active distinction in Chinese. It is a matter of inferring the direction of action from the overall context/situation. </div><div><br></div><div>It is common now for us to assign roles to positions of arguments of functions, but Chao was assuming (explicitly) that the order of the arguments of the function does not influence the interpretation. <br><br><div dir="ltr">All the best,</div><div dir="ltr">Randy </div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On 23 Aug 2023, at 9:44 AM, Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">Hi Randy,
<p>thanks for this report. There would be no point in criticizing
Chao, doubtless an eminent grammarian. However, it does not seem
that his use of the term 'argument' throws much light on Mandarin
grammar. Given your examples, nothing, of course, prevents you
from defining a function die(x, y) such that x is a being touched
by the death and y is the dying being. You then get a multiplicity
of functions die(v,w), where v and w play different roles. I am
not sure that this use of the word 'argument' helps in
understanding how the Chinese constructions work. - On the other
hand, the analysis in terms of topic and comment seems to have
gained foot in the literature. It does not seem to necessarily
involve the function-argument analysis.<br>
</p>
<p>Best, Christian</p>
<p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</p>
<div>Am 22.08.2023 um 18:52 schrieb Randy J.
LaPolla:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
Hi Christian,
<div><span style="text-align:justify;text-indent:0cm;line-height:18.4px" lang="EN-US">Y. R. Chao argued that the
arguments in Chinese are like the arguments of a mathematical
function. He argued (1968:69-70) that Chinese clause structure
is simply topic and comment, and “A corollary to the
topic-comment nature of predication is that the direction of
action in an action verb in the predicate need not go outward
from subject to object. Even in an N-V-N´ sequence, such as [</span><span style="text-align:justify;text-indent:0cm;line-height:18.4px" lang="EN-US">gǒu yǎo rén</span><span style="text-align:justify;text-indent:0cm;line-height:18.4px" lang="EN-US"> (dog bite man)], it is not always
certain that the action goes outward from N to N´.” (1968:
70). </span></div>
<div>
<p style="text-indent:0cm;margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:16.8667px"><span style="line-height:18.4px" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p style="text-indent:0cm;margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:16.8667px"><span style="line-height:18.4px" lang="EN-US">Chao (1955, 1959)
also argued that word order is not determined by, and does
not affect the interpretation of actor vs. non-actor; he
said the clause is analogous to a function in logic: the
argument is an argument of the function, and the truth value
is unaffected by its position in the clause (1959:254). <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="text-indent:0cm;margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:16.8667px"><span style="line-height:18.4px" lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="text-indent:0cm;margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:16.8667px"><span style="line-height:18.4px" lang="EN-US">He used the terms
“subject” for the topic and “object” for a reference phrase
(regardless of the semantic role of the referent in the
event), as in Chinese many sorts of semantic roles can
appear after the verb (e.g. 'I eat rice’, ‘I eat
restaurant’, 'I eat big bowl’,' I eat chopsticks’, 'this pot
of rice eats ten people (can feed ten people), ‘He died
father’ = 'he suffered the event of his father dying’,' fall
rain CHANGE OF STATE’ = It is raining’. In all of these
cases he would call the postverbal reference phrase the
“object”.</span></p>
<p style="text-indent:0cm;margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:16.8667px"><span style="line-height:18.4px" lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="text-indent:0cm;margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:16.8667px"><span style="line-height:18.4px" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0cm 14.2pt;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;text-align:justify;line-height:18.4px"><span lang="EN-GB">Chao Yuen Ren. 1955[1976]. Notes
on Chinese grammar and logic. In <i>Aspects of Chinese
sociolinguistics: Essays by Yuen Ren Chao,</i> Anwar S.
Dil (ed.), 237-249. Stanford: Stanford University Press.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0cm 14.2pt;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;text-align:justify;line-height:18.4px"><span lang="EN-GB"><span>Chao Yuen Ren. 1959[1976]. How Chinese logic
operates. In</span><span> </span><i>Aspects of Chinese
sociolinguistics: Essays by Yuen Ren Chao,</i><span> </span><span>Anwar S. Dil (ed.), 250 259.
Stanford: Stanford University Press.</span><span> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0cm 14.2pt;font-size:medium;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;text-align:justify;line-height:18.4px"><span lang="EN-GB">Chao Yuen Ren. 1968. <i>A grammar
of spoken Chinese</i>. Berkeley/Los Angeles: University of
California Press.</span></p>
<p style="text-indent:0cm;margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:16.8667px"><span style="line-height:18.4px" lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="text-indent:0cm;margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:16.8667px"><span style="line-height:18.4px" lang="EN-US">All the best,</span></p>
<p style="text-indent:0cm;margin:0cm;text-align:justify;line-height:16.8667px"><span style="line-height:18.4px" lang="EN-US">Randy</span></p>
<div>
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<div><span style="font-size:14px">——</span></div>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 22 Aug 2023, at 11:19 PM, Christian Lehmann
<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank"><christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de></a> wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<p>I am sure that what I am about to do here is completely
inappropriate on this list. In the interest of improving
communication among us, allow me nevertheless to use the
message by Hans Götzsche as support: If you think you
need to use the (mathematical and logical) term
'argument' in a context dealing with grammar, then
please at least make it clear whether an argument
occupies a role in semantic relationality or a syntactic
function in valency. Just one example: English <i>dine</i>
has two semantic roles, the eater and the thing eaten
(which may be called, i.a., agent and patient). It has
one dependent controlled by its valency, taking the form
of a subject and representing the eater. How many
arguments does it have?</p>
<p>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<br>
</p>
<div>Am 21.08.2023 um 08:03
schrieb Hans Götzsche:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
Begin forwarded message:<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
<div style="margin:0px"> <span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">Hans
Götzsche <a href="mailto:goetzsche@ikp.aau.dk" target="_blank"><goetzsche@ikp.aau.dk></a><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px"> <span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Re:
[Lingtyp] argument structure</b><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px"> <span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">21
August 2023 at 15.44.46 CEST<br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px"> <span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">Vladimir
Panov <a href="mailto:panovmeister@gmail.com" target="_blank"><panovmeister@gmail.com></a><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal"> Dear
Vladimir,</div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;min-height:17px"> <br>
</div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal"> allow me a
late comment. I have no remarks on Christian
Lehman’s comment, so I shall only mention that
the notion of ‘argument’ in theoretical
linguistics has, to my knowledge, ‘slipped
through the back door’, via formal approaches,
from mathematics, presumably 1865 (see *), and
later computation theory; meaning</div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;min-height:17px"> <br>
</div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:15px;line-height:normal;font-family:Georgia;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(65,71,77);background-color:rgb(251,249,240)"> <span style="font-kerning:none">An independent
variable of a function</span><span style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Helvetica;font-feature-settings:normal;font-kerning:none">.</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;background-color:rgb(251,249,240);min-height:17px"> <span style="font-kerning:none"></span><br>
</div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;background-color:rgb(251,249,240)"> <span style="font-kerning:none">I first
encountered the technical use of the word <i>argument</i>
at my ‘first course in formal logic’ (many
years ago), and the use of the term in
linguistics is one of the reasons why I
decided to develop ‘my own’ nomenclature in
formal syntax. As is well known the way we,
as linguists, use the myriad of technical
terms depends on what club (guild,
brotherhood, you choose) we are members of,
and taken as a set of words covering all
bits and pieces of (by some called) “the
language sciences” the set is full of
inconsistences, and sometimes
contradictions. Thus, it is not quite true
that “we all use the term “argument
structure””, and I only use the word <i>argument</i>
in the context of formal logic. The aim of
my development mentioned above, which was
published in</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;background-color:rgb(251,249,240);min-height:17px"> <span style="font-kerning:none"></span><br>
</div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:18px;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(55,59,83)"> <span style="font-kerning:none;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><b>Deviational
Syntactic Structures</b></span><span style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;font-kerning:none;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">†</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;min-height:17px"> <br>
</div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal">
was to establish a nomenclature that was both
consistent and would be able to cover all
language domains, from speech sounds to
semantics (but, so far, not pragmatics; which
I prefer to see as a matter of cultural
codifications). This was in line with the well
known and acknowledged Danish tradition in
Theoretical Linguistics (some scholars
remember Rasmus Rask and Karl Verner, to name
a few) and it was based on ideas by Otto
Jespersen and Louis Hjelmslev – as for the
formal systems – and the empirical
achievements of the grammarian Paul
Diderichsen. My suggestions were not all
cheered by Danish linguistists, but the formal
system – comparable to, e.g., <span style="font-kerning:none;color:rgb(14,14,14);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> Montague grammar – was the first and
only amalgamation of Hjelmslev’s <i>Glossematics</i>
and the descriptive tradition of Danish
syntax.</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(14,14,14);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);min-height:17px"> <span style="font-kerning:none"></span><br>
</div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(14,14,14);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> <span style="font-kerning:none">I once read a
‘Dear Sir’ letter to a Danish newspaper in
which the writer offered the opinion (in
translation): “why don’t everybody use words
the way I do; it would make everything much
easier”. But, of course, adopting such a
view would be impertinent.</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(14,14,14);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);min-height:17px"> <span style="font-kerning:none"></span><br>
</div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(14,14,14);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> <span style="font-kerning:none">Best wishes,</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(14,14,14);background-color:rgb(255,255,255);min-height:17px"> <span style="font-kerning:none"></span><br>
</div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(16,128,129)"> <span style="font-kerning:none">Hans
Götzsche (MA,PhD)</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(16,128,129)"> <span style="font-kerning:none"><i>Former
President, NAL</i></span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(16,128,129)"> <span style="font-kerning:none"><i>Nordic
Association of Linguists</i></span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(16,128,129)"> <span style="font-kerning:none">Emeritus
Associate Professor</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(16,128,129)"> <span style="font-kerning:none">Director,
Center for Linguistics</span></div>
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University</span></div>
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<span style="text-decoration:underline;font-kerning:none"><a href="mailto:goetzsche@ikp.aau.dk" target="_blank">goetzsche@ikp.aau.dk</a></span></div>
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<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(52,33,192)"> <span style="font-kerning:none">Dr
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<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(52,33,192)"> <span style="font-kerning:none">Emerito
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<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(52,33,192)"> <span style="font-kerning:none">Via
S. Apollinare 19,2</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(52,33,192)"> <span style="font-kerning:none">36063
Marostica (VI)</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(52,33,192)"> <span style="font-kerning:none">ITALIA</span></div>
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<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:14px;line-height:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal">*</span><a href="https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/144141/what-is-the-sense-of-using-word-argument-for-inputs-of-a-function" target="_blank">https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/144141/what-is-the-sense-of-using-word-argument-for-inputs-of-a-function</a></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Times;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(0,0,233)"> <span style="text-decoration:underline;font-kerning:none"><a href="https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/144141/what-is-the-sense-of-using-word-argument-for-inputs-of-a-function" target="_blank">terminology - What
is the sense of using word "argument", for
inputs of a function? - English Language
& Usage Stack Exchange<span style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;font-kerning:none;color:rgb(0,0,233)"></span></a></span></div>
<div style="margin:0px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Times;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;color:rgb(0,0,233)"> <span style="text-decoration:underline;font-kerning:none">† <a href="https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/deviational-syntactic-structures-9781472587961/" target="_blank"> <span style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;font-feature-settings:normal;font-kerning:none;color:rgb(0,0,233)">https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/deviational-syntactic-structures-9781472587961/</span></a></span></div>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 19 Aug 2023, at 12.11, Vladimir
Panov <a href="mailto:panovmeister@gmail.com" target="_blank"><panovmeister@gmail.com></a>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Dear colleagues,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have a very general question to
you. We all use the term "argument
structure" and we are used to
semantic labels like A, S or P or
syntactic labels like subject,
direct and indirect object. Many
linguistis, especially those
adhering to "formal" approaches,
would argue that there are also
adjuncts which are not arguments.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is anybody aware of any attempts
to seriously challenge the adequacy
of the very notion of "arguments" in
general? After all, ir seems that
there are languages which do not
encode or encode little the "roles"
of named entities (noun phrases,
pronouns etc.) anywhere in
utterance, especially in colloquial
language, or encode entities like
the addressee rather than the agent
or the patient. My intuition tells
me that there might be such critical
works in the traditions of
usage-based linguistics,
interactional linguistics,
conversation analysis or linguistic
anthropology but I have found very
little. Actually, I've only
discovered the very recent Heine's
book in which he argues for a
broader understanding of argument
structure which includes speech
situation participants - a very
interestinng view. So am looking for
more research in this spirit.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm sorry if it sounds a bit
confusing but if anything like that
comes to you mind I'll be happy if
you can share it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Vladimir Panov</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><i>I condemn the Russian
agression in Ukraine</i></div>
</div>
</div>
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<div>-- <br>
<p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></p>
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<td><a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de" target="_blank">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a></td>
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