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Dear Christian,</p>
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thanks for your comment on my posting, ie my comment on Vladimir’s question. I couldn’t agree more; even though I do not use the categories mentioned by you (actants, valency and topic/comment), but that’s another debate. Also, I agree on your comment on Randy
Rapolla’s posting, referring to Y.R. Chao and grammatical analyses of Chinese. But this latest issue raises the question of who may claim the ‘copyright’ to a technical term; and can tradition, origin and history justify such claims? I’m not sure that math
is the best terminological role model for linguistics – even though one may legitimately do something labelled ‘mathematical linguistics’. It has to do with the philosophy of mathematics. It may surprise some linguists that most theoretical mathematicians
are platonists (I don’t remember the reference; but you may check</p>
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https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/platonism-mathematics/</p>
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<span style="text-decoration: underline ; font-kerning: none"><a href="https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/platonism-mathematics/">Platonism in the Philosophy of Mathematics (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)</a></span><span style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: Helvetica; font-size-adjust: none; font-kerning: auto; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-variation-settings: normal; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">),</span></p>
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metaphysically believing in abstract objects. Anyway, a basic question is here whether it is correct (I don’t use the word true in this context) that</p>
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<span style="font-kerning: none">Mathematical truths are therefore discovered, not invented.</span></p>
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https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/platonism-mathematics/</p>
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<span style="text-decoration: underline ; font-kerning: none"><a href="https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/platonism-mathematics/">Platonism in the Philosophy of Mathematics (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)</a></span></p>
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In my view math deals with quantities in the form of numbers and only the natural numbers have an empirical basis, and therefore other parts of the math domain is stipulated (in the quote “invented”) as an artificial language following the rules induced from
the natural numbers. So maybe <i>functions</i> and <i>variables</i> may not be the best 'parallels of' some phenomena in natural languages.</p>
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In the history of <i>science</i> (a word which in the modern sense is relatvely new, ie 19c.) it has been customary to ‘borrow’ terminology from the other ‘sciences’, and sometimes such analogies may be enlightning, sometimes they lead to confusion. Touching
upon Chinese I have, in the field of dyslexia, seen papers that hold that ‘Chinese dyslexia’ can be explained by the phoneme/grapheme relation. My knowledge of Chinese (and varieties thereof) is scarce but I find it hard to ascertain these relationships; so
I prefer other explanations of this diagnosis, and we may have debates about this. So, in what I see as the spirit of Christian Lehmann: let’s have an open mind about things and words.</p>
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All the best,</p>
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Hans</p>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 23 Aug 2023, at 03.43, Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de> wrote:</div>
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<p>Hi Randy,</p>
<p>thanks for this report. There would be no point in criticizing Chao, doubtless an eminent grammarian. However, it does not seem that his use of the term 'argument' throws much light on Mandarin grammar. Given your examples, nothing, of course, prevents you
from defining a function die(x, y) such that x is a being touched by the death and y is the dying being. You then get a multiplicity of functions die(v,w), where v and w play different roles. I am not sure that this use of the word 'argument' helps in understanding
how the Chinese constructions work. - On the other hand, the analysis in terms of topic and comment seems to have gained foot in the literature. It does not seem to necessarily involve the function-argument analysis.<br>
</p>
<p>Best, Christian</p>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 22.08.2023 um 18:52 schrieb Randy J. LaPolla:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:4A5DC618-D614-43EF-A86E-F75030636950@gmail.com">
Hi Christian,
<div><span style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 0cm;
line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US">Y. R. Chao argued that the arguments in Chinese are like the arguments of a mathematical function. He argued (1968:69-70) that Chinese clause structure is
simply topic and comment, and “A corollary to the topic-comment nature of predication is that the direction of action in an action verb in the predicate need not go outward from subject to object. Even in an N-V-N´ sequence, such as [</span><span style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 0cm; line-height:
18.4px;" lang="EN-US">gǒu
yǎo rén</span><span style="text-align: justify; text-indent: 0cm; line-height:
18.4px;" lang="EN-US"> (dog bite man)], it is not always certain that the action goes outward from N to N´.” (1968: 70). </span></div>
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0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 16.866667px;">
<span style="line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
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<span style="line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US">Chao (1955, 1959) also argued that word order is not determined by, and does not affect the interpretation of actor vs. non-actor; he said the clause is analogous to a function in logic: the argument is an argument
of the function, and the truth value is unaffected by its position in the clause (1959:254). <o:p></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></div>
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<span style="line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US">He used the terms “subject” for the topic and “object” for a reference phrase (regardless of the semantic role of the referent in the event), as in Chinese many sorts of semantic roles can appear after the verb
(e.g. 'I eat rice’, ‘I eat restaurant’, 'I eat big bowl’,' I eat chopsticks’, 'this pot of rice eats ten people (can feed ten people), ‘He died father’ = 'he suffered the event of his father dying’,' fall rain CHANGE OF STATE’ = It is raining’. In all of these
cases he would call the postverbal reference phrase the “object”.</span></div>
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<span style="line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></div>
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0cm; text-align: justify; line-height: 16.866667px;">
<span style="line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US"></span></p>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 14.2pt; font-size: medium; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; text-align: justify; text-indent: -14.2pt; line-height: 18.4px;">
<span lang="EN-GB">Chao Yuen Ren. 1955[1976]. Notes on Chinese grammar and logic. In <i>Aspects of Chinese sociolinguistics: Essays by Yuen Ren Chao,</i> Anwar S. Dil (ed.), 237-249. Stanford: Stanford University Press.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 14.2pt; font-size: medium; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; text-align: justify; text-indent: -14.2pt; line-height: 18.4px;">
<span lang="EN-GB"><span style="text-indent:
-14.2pt;">Chao Yuen Ren. 1959[1976]. How Chinese logic operates. In</span><span style="text-indent: -14.2pt;"> </span><i style="text-indent: -14.2pt;">Aspects of Chinese sociolinguistics: Essays by
Yuen Ren Chao,</i><span style="text-indent: -14.2pt;"> </span><span style="text-indent: -14.2pt;">Anwar S. Dil (ed.), 250 259. Stanford: Stanford University Press.</span><span style="text-indent: -14.2pt;"> </span></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 14.2pt; font-size: medium; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; text-align: justify; text-indent: -14.2pt; line-height: 18.4px;">
<span lang="EN-GB">Chao Yuen Ren. 1968. <i>A grammar of spoken Chinese</i>. Berkeley/Los Angeles: University of California Press.</span></div>
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<span style="line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US">All the best,</span></div>
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<span style="line-height: 18.4px;" lang="EN-US">Randy</span></div>
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<div><span style="font-size: 14px;">——</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Professor Randy J. LaPolla</span><span style="font-family: Verdana, Helvetica,
Arial; font-size: 13.333333px; orphans: 2;
widows: 2;">（罗仁地)</span><span style="font-size: 14px;">,
PhD FAHA </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Center for Language Sciences</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Institute for Advanced Studies in Humanities and Social Sciences</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Beijing Normal University at Zhuhai</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 14px;">A302, Muduo Building, #18 Jinfeng Road, Zhuhai City</span><span style="font-size: 14px;">, Guangdong</span><span style="font-size:
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 22 Aug 2023, at 11:19 PM, Christian Lehmann <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de">
<christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de></a> wrote:</div>
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<p>I am sure that what I am about to do here is completely inappropriate on this list. In the interest of improving communication among us, allow me nevertheless to use the message by Hans Götzsche as support: If you think you need to use the (mathematical
and logical) term 'argument' in a context dealing with grammar, then please at least make it clear whether an argument occupies a role in semantic relationality or a syntactic function in valency. Just one example: English
<i>dine</i> has two semantic roles, the eater and the thing eaten (which may be called, i.a., agent and patient). It has one dependent controlled by its valency, taking the form of a subject and representing the eater. How many arguments does it have?</p>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 21.08.2023 um 08:03 schrieb Hans Götzsche:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:EB072503-E747-4E5D-8654-5565EBE08BDD@ikp.aau.dk">
Begin forwarded message:<br>
<div>
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margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica,
sans-serif;"><b>From:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Hans Götzsche
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:goetzsche@ikp.aau.dk" moz-do-not-send="true">
<goetzsche@ikp.aau.dk></a><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica,
sans-serif;"><b>Subject:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><b>Re: [Lingtyp] argument structure</b><br>
</span></div>
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margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica,
sans-serif;"><b>Date:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;">21 August 2023 at 15.44.46 CEST<br>
</span></div>
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margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;">
<span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font,
"Helvetica Neue", Helvetica,
sans-serif;"><b>To:
</b></span><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font,
Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Vladimir Panov
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:panovmeister@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">
<panovmeister@gmail.com></a><br>
</span></div>
<br>
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after-white-space;">
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Dear Vladimir,</div>
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allow me a late comment. I have no remarks on Christian Lehman’s comment, so I shall only mention that the notion of ‘argument’ in theoretical linguistics has, to my knowledge, ‘slipped through the back door’, via formal approaches, from mathematics, presumably
1865 (see *), and later computation theory; meaning</div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none">An independent variable of a function</span><span style="font-style: normal;
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<span style="font-kerning: none">I first encountered the technical use of the word
<i>argument</i> at my ‘first course in formal logic’ (many years ago), and the use of the term in linguistics is one of the reasons why I decided to develop ‘my own’ nomenclature in formal syntax. As is well known the way we, as linguists, use the myriad of
technical terms depends on what club (guild, brotherhood, you choose) we are members of, and taken as a set of words covering all bits and pieces of (by some called) “the language sciences” the set is full of inconsistences, and sometimes contradictions. Thus,
it is not quite true that “we all use the term “argument structure””, and I only use the word
<i>argument</i> in the context of formal logic. The aim of my development mentioned above, which was published in</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none;
background-color: #ffffff"><b>Deviational Syntactic Structures</b></span><span style="font-style: normal;
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rgb(255, 255, 255);">†</span></div>
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was to establish a nomenclature that was both consistent and would be able to cover all language domains, from speech sounds to semantics (but, so far, not pragmatics; which I prefer to see as a matter of cultural codifications). This was in line with the well
known and acknowledged Danish tradition in Theoretical Linguistics (some scholars remember Rasmus Rask and Karl Verner, to name a few) and it was based on ideas by Otto Jespersen and Louis Hjelmslev – as for the formal systems – and the empirical achievements
of the grammarian Paul Diderichsen. My suggestions were not all cheered by Danish linguistists, but the formal system – comparable to, e.g.,
<span style="font-kerning: none; color: rgb(14,
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Montague grammar – was the first and only amalgamation of Hjelmslev’s <i>Glossematics</i> and the descriptive tradition of Danish syntax.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none">I once read a ‘Dear Sir’ letter to a Danish newspaper in which the writer offered the opinion (in translation): “why don’t everybody use words the way I do; it would make everything much easier”. But, of course, adopting such
a view would be impertinent.</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none">Best wishes,</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none">Hans Götzsche (MA,PhD)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none"><i>Former President, NAL</i></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none"><i>Nordic Association of Linguists</i></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none">Emeritus Associate Professor</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none">Director, Center for Linguistics</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none">Aalborg University</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none">Rendsburggade 14</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none">9000 Aalborg</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none">DENMARK</span></div>
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<span style="text-decoration: underline ;
font-kerning: none"><a href="mailto:goetzsche@ikp.aau.dk" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">goetzsche@ikp.aau.dk</a></span></div>
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<span style="text-decoration: underline ;
font-kerning: none"><a href="http://www.cfl.hum.aau/" moz-do-not-send="true">www.cfl.hum.aau</a></span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none">Dr Hans Goetzsche</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none">Emerito Professore Universitario</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none">Via S. Apollinare 19,2</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none">36063 Marostica (VI)</span></div>
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<span style="font-kerning: none">ITALIA</span></div>
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<br>
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font-variation-settings: normal;">*</span><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/144141/what-is-the-sense-of-using-word-argument-for-inputs-of-a-function" moz-do-not-send="true">https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/144141/what-is-the-sense-of-using-word-argument-for-inputs-of-a-function</a></div>
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<span style="text-decoration: underline ;
font-kerning: none"><a href="https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/144141/what-is-the-sense-of-using-word-argument-for-inputs-of-a-function" moz-do-not-send="true">terminology - What
is the sense of using word "argument", for inputs of a function? - English Language & Usage Stack Exchange<span style="font-style: normal;
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<span style="text-decoration: underline ;
font-kerning: none">†
<a href="https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/deviational-syntactic-structures-9781472587961/" moz-do-not-send="true">
<span style="font-style: normal;
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233);">https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/deviational-syntactic-structures-9781472587961/</span></a></span></div>
<div><br>
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<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 19 Aug 2023, at 12.11, Vladimir Panov <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:panovmeister@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">
<panovmeister@gmail.com></a> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Dear colleagues,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have a very general question to you. We all use the term "argument structure" and we are used to semantic labels like A, S or P or syntactic labels like subject, direct and indirect object. Many linguistis, especially those adhering to "formal" approaches,
would argue that there are also adjuncts which are not arguments.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is anybody aware of any attempts to seriously challenge the adequacy of the very notion of "arguments" in general? After all, ir seems that there are languages which do not encode or encode little the "roles" of named entities (noun phrases, pronouns etc.)
anywhere in utterance, especially in colloquial language, or encode entities like the addressee rather than the agent or the patient. My intuition tells me that there might be such critical works in the traditions of usage-based linguistics, interactional
linguistics, conversation analysis or linguistic anthropology but I have found very little. Actually, I've only discovered the very recent Heine's book in which he argues for a broader understanding of argument structure which includes speech situation participants
- a very interestinng view. So am looking for more research in this spirit.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm sorry if it sounds a bit confusing but if anything like that comes to you mind I'll be happy if you can share it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Vladimir Panov</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><i>I condemn the Russian agression in Ukraine</i></div>
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