<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">Hi Jianming,<div>If you use examples like ‘I drink coffee’, of course the animate referent will be seen as the actor, but this is not evidence for a fixed AVP structure.</div><div><br></div><div>You say </div><div>" In addition, text frequency counts on word order patterns alone may provide an inaccurate understanding of word order in Mandarin Chinese, as word order can be influenced by discourse-pragmatic factors and cognitive-semantic considerations”,</div><div>but you cannot disregard discourse-pragmatic and cognitive-semantic considerations. If they can change the understanding of N V N’ clauses, then it means there is no syntactic constraint on the interpretation of the clause. Also, this is very much a matter of natural data, not made-up sentences, so frequency counts also can’t be discounted.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="ZH-CN" link="blue" vlink="#954F72" style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> This order reflects the typical conceptual structure of events where there is an agent performing an action on an object or patient.</span></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>The fact that actors are more often topics is well-known, and this can of course influence the interpretation, but whether a language has grammaticalised syntactic constraints on the interpretation of the roles of referents has to be shown. You have given examples that show there is clearly not a grammaticalised constraint on the interpretation of the roles of referents, as the nature of the referent overrides the tendency for the actor to be topic.</div><div><br></div><div>All the best,</div><div>Randy</div><div><div>
<meta charset="UTF-8"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">——</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Professor Randy J. LaPolla</span><span style="font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13.333333015441895px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;">（罗仁地)</span><span style="font-size: 14px;">, PhD FAHA </span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Center for Language Sciences</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Institute for Advanced Studies in Humanities and Social Sciences</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Beijing Normal University at Zhuhai</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;">A302, Muduo Building, #18 Jinfeng Road, Zhuhai City</span><span style="font-size: 14px;">, Guangdong</span><span style="font-size: 14px;">, China</span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;"><a href="https://randylapolla.info">https://randylapolla.info</a></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">ORCID ID:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color: rgb(73, 74, 76); background-color: white;"><a href="https://orcid.org/0000-0002-6100-6196">https://orcid.org/0000-0002-6100-6196</a> </span></span> </div><div><span style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 15px;">邮编：519087</span><br style="font-size: 15px;"><span style="font-size: 15px;">广东省珠海市唐家湾镇金凤路18号木铎楼A302</span><br style="font-size: 15px;"><span style="font-size: 15px;">北京师范大学珠海校区</span><br style="font-size: 15px;"><span style="font-size: 15px;">人文和社会科学高等研究院</span><br style="font-size: 15px;"><span style="font-size: 15px;">语言科学研究中心 </span></div></div><div><br></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 25 Aug 2023, at 8:37 PM, Wu Jianming <wu.jianming2011@hotmail.com> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div>
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<div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Dear David and colleagues</span>，</p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> The N-V-N structure in Mandarin is indeed used for transitive encodings (or “<b>formal concept</b>” in Martin’s term). In this structure, the verb is placed between two nouns (N1-V-N2), representing the action being
performed on the object. For example, consider the sentence "</span>我喝咖啡<span lang="EN-GB">" (wǒ hē kāfēi), which means "I drink coffee." This structure allows for a concise and clear way of expressing transitive actions in Mandarin.
</span></p><div><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> However, for the sake of discourse continuity and conciseness, the same N-V-N structure or transitive encodings can be used in :
</span>一锅饭吃十个人<span lang="EN-GB"> yī guō fàn chī shí gè rén, Literal Translation: One pot of rice eat ten people; Better Translation: One pot of rice feeds ten people. Or
</span>这匹马骑过许多人<span lang="EN-GB"> zhè pǐ mǎ qí le xǔ duō rén; Literal Translation: This horse rode many people; Better Translation: Many people have ridden this horse. The direct translation of the two sentences might not capture the intended meaning efficiently.
It is also particularly used when the emphasis is on the action and its direct object, rather than on the subject.
</span></p><div><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> When Mandarin speakers are asked to describe the propositional meanings of the two sentences, they use the canonical SVO/AVP order, because the SVO/AVP word order in Mandarin Chinese reflects a cognitive-semantic
iconicity that aligns with the sequence of transitive events in real-world situations. This canonical word order is often used to ensure accurate and natural communication of the intended meaning<b>. In other words , A and P, as semantic roles, can never
be symmetric but always asymmetric in cognition (but not in surface forms).</b>
</span></p><div><span lang="EN-GB"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> In addition, text frequency counts on word order patterns alone may provide an inaccurate understanding of word order in Mandarin Chinese, as word order can be influenced by discourse-pragmatic factors and cognitive-semantic
considerations. But they are not the same things. The basic AVP (agent-verb-patient) order in Mandarin Chinese is often aligned or sequenced with prototypical transitive events in the conceptualized world. This order reflects the typical conceptual structure
of events where there is an agent performing an action on an object or patient.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> Therefore, in my view, while Mandarin Chinese does have some flexibility in word order, it is not completely free.
</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Best,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Jianming </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Sent from <a href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986">
Mail</a> for Windows</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0cm"><b><span lang="EN-GB">From: </span>
</b><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="mailto:gil@shh.mpg.de">David Gil</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>2023</span>年<span lang="EN-GB">8</span>月<span lang="EN-GB">25</span>日<span lang="EN-GB"> 17:20<br>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] argument structure</span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p><span lang="EN-GB">Dear all,</span></p><p><span lang="EN-GB">Some additional data: In my ongoing cross-linguistic Association Experiment, I tested 4 sentences of N V N structure to see if they permitted Pat V Ag interpretations, in (among others) three Sinitic varieties. (Of these 4 sentences,
2 were semantically symmetric while 2 were asymmetric.) For each variety I tested approximately 30 subjects. The availability of such Pat V Ag interpretations was as follows:</span></p><p><span lang="EN-GB">Mandarin (Beijing): 8%<br>
</span><span style="font-family:"Meiryo",sans-serif">
</span><span lang="EN-GB">Cantonese (HK): 7%</span><span style="font-family:"Meiryo",sans-serif">
</span><span lang="EN-GB"><br>
Mandarin (overseas Chinese, Jakarta): 18%</span></p><p><span lang="EN-GB">What these results show is that while there is a strong disfavouring of Pat V Ag interpretations in such constructions, they are nevertheless available.
</span></p><p><span lang="EN-GB">Best,</span></p><p><span lang="EN-GB">David</span></p><p><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">On 23/08/2023 18:24, Chao Li wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
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<div id="m_-197487478029998947m_-3494078813807167779gmail-:36m">
<div id="m_-197487478029998947m_-3494078813807167779gmail-:65t"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Dear Randy, </span></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">You have cited Y. R. Chao a few times and apparently you adopt the position that Chinese can be sufficiently explained with the notions of topic and comment. I do not think that anyone working on Chinese would deny the
importance of the notions of topic and comment in describing and explaining the functioning of Chinese. Also, probably no one working on Chinese would deny the fact that Chinese exhibits flexibility in word order, as shown by the examples you cited in your
messages. However, IF your position is that Chinese (essentially) has no argument structure or that word order has no place in Chinese grammar, Jianming (as can be seen from his earlier discussion with you), I, and very likely many others would think that
this position is too extreme. Word order (and argument structure) actually has an important place in Chinese grammar. Otherwise, why (1) has to be interpreted as "the cat is/was chasing the dog" (even though in the real world cats are timid and it is more
likely for a dog to chase a cat than for a cat to chase a dog), why (2b) is odd or bad (particularly when previous clauses in the same Chinese sentence, as can be viewed by clicking on the link, remain unchanged), or why 'that girl' in (3), not '(the) flower'
or 'flowers' in the same sentence, has to be understood as the entity that was consumed? All the three examples contain a transitive verb and in spirit they are all of the "N-V-N’" format. </span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">(1) Māo zài zhuī gǒu. </span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> cat Progressive chase dog</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> 'The cat is/was chasing the dog.'</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">(2) a. ... wǒ hē-le nà bēi guǒzhī. </span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> I drink-Perfective that cup juice</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> '...I drank that cup of juice.' (<a href="https://cn.nytimes.com/style/20170209/the-stir-fried-tomatoes-and-eggs-my-chinese-mother-made/zh-hant/" target="_blank">https://cn.nytimes.com/style/20170209/the-stir-fried-tomatoes-and-eggs-my-chinese-mother-made/zh-hant/</a>)</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> b. ??... nà bēi guǒzhī hē-le wǒ. </span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> that cup juice drink-Perfective I</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">(3) Huā chī-le nà nǚhái. (name of a movie)</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"> flower eat-Perfective that girl</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Best regards,</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Chao</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 11:52</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><span lang="EN-GB">PM Randy LaPolla <<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" target="_blank">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Thanks Christian, </span></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Chao’s point in using the analogy of the function in logic is just to explain how the position of reference phrases in the clause is not related to semantic role, as it is in English, so N-V-N’ (actually [Topic N]-[Comment
V-N’]) can be almost any set of semantic roles, depending only on contextual factors for their interpretation, as long as the addressee can create a meaning from it. The examples I gave are only a few of the possibilities. This is also why he argued there
is no passive/active distinction in Chinese. It is a matter of inferring the direction of action from the overall context/situation. </span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-GB">It is common now for us to assign roles to positions of arguments of functions, but Chao was assuming (explicitly) that the order of the arguments of the function does not influence the interpretation. </span></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">All the best,</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Randy </span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><br>
<br>
</span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-GB">On 23 Aug 2023, at 9:44 AM, Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span><span lang="EN-GB">Hi Randy,
</span></p><p><span lang="EN-GB">thanks for this report. There would be no point in criticizing Chao, doubtless an eminent grammarian. However, it does not seem that his use of the term 'argument' throws much light on Mandarin grammar. Given your examples, nothing, of
course, prevents you from defining a function die(x, y) such that x is a being touched by the death and y is the dying being. You then get a multiplicity of functions die(v,w), where v and w play different roles. I am not sure that this use of the word 'argument'
helps in understanding how the Chinese constructions work. - On the other hand, the analysis in terms of topic and comment seems to have gained foot in the literature. It does not seem to necessarily involve the function-argument analysis.</span></p><p><span lang="EN-GB">Best, Christian</span></p><p><span lang="EN-GB">--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</span></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Am 22.08.2023 um 18:52 schrieb Randy J. LaPolla:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Hi Christian, </span></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Y. R. Chao argued that the arguments in Chinese are like the arguments of a mathematical function. He argued (1968:69-70) that Chinese clause structure is simply topic and comment, and “A corollary to the topic-comment
nature of predication is that the direction of action in an action verb in the predicate need not go outward from subject to object. Even in an N-V-N´ sequence, such as [go</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">̌</span><span lang="EN-US">u
ya</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">̌</span><span lang="EN-US">o rén (dog bite man)], it is not always certain that the action goes outward from N to N´.” (1968: 70). </span></p>
</div>
<div><div><span lang="EN-US"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p><span lang="EN-US">Chao (1955, 1959) also argued that word order is not determined by, and does not affect the interpretation of actor vs. non-actor; he said the clause is analogous to a function in logic: the argument is an argument of the function, and
the truth value is unaffected by its position in the clause (1959:254). </span></p><p><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p><span lang="EN-US">He used the terms “subject” for the topic and “object” for a reference phrase (regardless of the semantic role of the referent in the event), as in Chinese many sorts of semantic roles can appear after the verb (e.g. 'I eat rice’, ‘I eat
restaurant’, 'I eat big bowl’,' I eat chopsticks’, 'this pot of rice eats ten people (can feed ten people), ‘He died father’ = 'he suffered the event of his father dying’,' fall rain CHANGE OF STATE’ = It is raining’. In all of these cases he would call the
postverbal reference phrase the “object”.</span></p><p><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Chao Yuen Ren. 1955[1976]. Notes on Chinese grammar and logic. In <i>Aspects of Chinese sociolinguistics: Essays by Yuen Ren Chao,</i> Anwar S. Dil (ed.), 237-249.
Stanford: Stanford University Press.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Chao Yuen Ren. 1959[1976]. How Chinese logic operates. In <i>Aspects of Chinese sociolinguistics: Essays by Yuen Ren Chao,</i> Anwar S. Dil (ed.), 250 259. Stanford:
Stanford University Press. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang="EN-GB">Chao Yuen Ren. 1968. <i>A grammar of spoken Chinese</i>. Berkeley/Los Angeles: University of California Press.</span></p><p><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p><span lang="EN-US">All the best,</span></p><p><span lang="EN-US">Randy</span></p>
<div>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">——</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Professor Randy J. LaPolla</span>（罗仁地<span lang="EN-GB">), PhD FAHA </span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Center for Language Sciences</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Institute for Advanced Studies in Humanities and Social Sciences</span></p>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Beijing Normal University at Zhuhai</span></p>
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</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><br>
<br>
</span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">On 22 Aug 2023, at 11:19 PM, Christian Lehmann
<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank"><christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de></a> wrote:</span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div><p><span lang="EN-GB">I am sure that what I am about to do here is completely inappropriate on this list. In the interest of improving communication among us, allow me nevertheless to use the message by Hans Götzsche as support: If you think you need to use
the (mathematical and logical) term 'argument' in a context dealing with grammar, then please at least make it clear whether an argument occupies a role in semantic relationality or a syntactic function in valency. Just one example: English
<i>dine</i> has two semantic roles, the eater and the thing eaten (which may be called, i.a., agent and patient). It has one dependent controlled by its valency, taking the form of a subject and representing the eater. How many arguments does it have?</span></p><p><span lang="EN-GB">----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
</span></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Am 21.08.2023 um 08:03 schrieb Hans Götzsche:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Begin forwarded message:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB">From: </span></b><span lang="EN-GB">Hans Götzsche
<a href="mailto:goetzsche@ikp.aau.dk" target="_blank"><goetzsche@ikp.aau.dk></a></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB">Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] argument structure</span></b></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB">Date: </span></b><span lang="EN-GB">21 August 2023 at 15.44.46 CEST</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB">To: </span></b><span lang="EN-GB">Vladimir Panov
<a href="mailto:panovmeister@gmail.com" target="_blank"><panovmeister@gmail.com></a></span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Dear Vladimir,</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">allow me a late comment. I have no remarks on Christian Lehman’s comment, so I shall only mention that the notion of ‘argument’ in theoretical linguistics has, to my knowledge, ‘slipped through the back door’, via formal
approaches, from mathematics, presumably 1865 (see *), and later computation theory; meaning</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">An independent variable of a function.</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">I first encountered the technical use of the word
<i>argument</i> at my ‘first course in formal logic’ (many years ago), and the use of the term in linguistics is one of the reasons why I decided to develop ‘my own’ nomenclature in formal syntax. As is well known the way we, as linguists, use the myriad of
technical terms depends on what club (guild, brotherhood, you choose) we are members of, and taken as a set of words covering all bits and pieces of (by some called) “the language sciences” the set is full of inconsistences, and sometimes contradictions. Thus,
it is not quite true that “we all use the term “argument structure””, and I only use the word
<i>argument</i> in the context of formal logic. The aim of my development mentioned above, which was published in</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-GB">Deviational Syntactic Structures</span></b><span lang="EN-GB">†</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">was to establish a nomenclature that was both consistent and would be able to cover all language domains, from speech sounds to semantics (but, so far, not pragmatics; which I prefer to see as a matter of cultural codifications).
This was in line with the well known and acknowledged Danish tradition in Theoretical Linguistics (some scholars remember Rasmus Rask and Karl Verner, to name a few) and it was based on ideas by Otto Jespersen and Louis Hjelmslev – as for the formal systems
– and the empirical achievements of the grammarian Paul Diderichsen. My suggestions were not all cheered by Danish linguistists, but the formal system – comparable to, e.g., Montague grammar – was the first and only amalgamation of Hjelmslev’s
<i>Glossematics</i> and the descriptive tradition of Danish syntax.</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">I once read a ‘Dear Sir’ letter to a Danish newspaper in which the writer offered the opinion (in translation): “why don’t everybody use words the way I do; it would make everything much easier”. But, of course, adopting
such a view would be impertinent.</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Best wishes,</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Hans Götzsche (MA,PhD)</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-GB">Former President, NAL</span></i></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-GB">Nordic Association of Linguists</span></i></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Emeritus Associate Professor</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Director, Center for Linguistics</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Aalborg University</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Rendsburggade 14</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">9000 Aalborg</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">DENMARK<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="mailto:goetzsche@ikp.aau.dk" target="_blank">goetzsche@ikp.aau.dk</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="http://www.cfl.hum.aau/" target="_blank">www.cfl.hum.aau</a></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Dr Hans Goetzsche</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Emerito Professore Universitario</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Via S. Apollinare 19,2</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">36063 Marostica (VI)</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">ITALIA</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">*<a href="https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/144141/what-is-the-sense-of-using-word-argument-for-inputs-of-a-function" target="_blank">https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/144141/what-is-the-sense-of-using-word-argument-for-inputs-of-a-function</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><a href="https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/144141/what-is-the-sense-of-using-word-argument-for-inputs-of-a-function" target="_blank">terminology - What is the sense of using word "argument", for inputs of a
function? - English Language & Usage Stack Exchange</a></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">† <a href="https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/deviational-syntactic-structures-9781472587961/" target="_blank">
https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/deviational-syntactic-structures-9781472587961/</a></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><br>
<br>
</span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">On 19 Aug 2023, at 12.11, Vladimir Panov <a href="mailto:panovmeister@gmail.com" target="_blank">
<panovmeister@gmail.com></a> wrote:</span></p>
</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Dear colleagues, </span></p>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">I have a very general question to you. We all use the term "argument structure" and we are used to semantic labels like A, S or P or syntactic labels like subject, direct and indirect object. Many linguistis, especially
those adhering to "formal" approaches, would argue that there are also adjuncts which are not arguments.</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Is anybody aware of any attempts to seriously challenge the adequacy of the very notion of "arguments" in general? After all, ir seems that there are languages which do not encode or encode little the "roles" of named
entities (noun phrases, pronouns etc.) anywhere in utterance, especially in colloquial language, or encode entities like the addressee rather than the agent or the patient. My intuition tells me that there might be such critical works in the traditions of
usage-based linguistics, interactional linguistics, conversation analysis or linguistic anthropology but I have found very little. Actually, I've only discovered the very recent Heine's book in which he argues for a broader understanding of argument structure
which includes speech situation participants - a very interestinng view. So am looking for more research in this spirit.</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">I'm sorry if it sounds a bit confusing but if anything like that comes to you mind I'll be happy if you can share it.</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Best,</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Vladimir Panov</span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><i><span lang="EN-GB">I condemn the Russian agression in Ukraine</span></i></p>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">-- </span></p><p><span lang="EN-GB">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
Deutschland</span></p>
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<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Web:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">-- </span></p><p><span lang="EN-GB">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
Deutschland</span></p>
<table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellpadding="0">
<tbody>
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<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Tel.:</span></p>
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<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">+49/361/2113417</span></p>
</td>
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<tr>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">E-Post:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
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<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB">Web:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<pre><span lang="EN-GB">-- </span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">David Gil</span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Senior Scientist (Associate)</span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution</span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology</span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB">Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany</span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre>
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<pre><span lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:SimSun"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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