<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Michael,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks for bringing up that point, which is indeed something where we (or at least I) have been simplifying a bit.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div id="gmail-:5zs" class="gmail-tS-tY editable gmail-LW-avf gmail-Am gmail-Al gmail-aO9 gmail-tS-tW" aria-label="Текст письма" role="textbox" aria-multiline="true" tabindex="1" aria-controls=":7bz" style="direction: ltr; min-height: 85px;"><div class="">However, not only in the cross-linguistic study of apprehensives that followed Lichtenberk (e.g. Dobrushina 2006, work by Eva Shultze-Berndt and Marine Vuillermet), but I think also in Lichtenberk himself the category of apprehesion is far from being equated with just negative evaluation, which would be the counterpart to your definition of the approbative. In this line of research, apprehensive is often considered as grammaticalization of warning, sometimes if not often including an element of manipulative speech act (causing the addressee to avoid an undesirable situation or an undesirable consequence; hence the short-lived alternative term preventive). This is how I've been reading it.</div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="gmail-tS-tY editable gmail-LW-avf gmail-Am gmail-Al gmail-aO9 gmail-tS-tW" aria-label="Текст письма" role="textbox" aria-multiline="true" tabindex="1" aria-controls=":7bz" style="direction: ltr; min-height: 85px;"><div class="">I don’t think I would entirely agree. In line with what you said, Lichtenberk discusses these items under the term of „apprehensions epistemic“, i.e. a combination of epistemic possibility plus negative subjective evaluation of the potential state-of-affairs (together yielding the ‚risk of‘ meaning). Why I have been glossing over this dual modal analysis is because I wanted to avoid the (somewhat philosophical) question of whether the epistemic component is actually necessary as a separate meaning element, or whether the subjective evaluation („bouletic“ modality, to use that unfortunate term) entails epistemic possibility (i.e. can you evaluate what is not even considered possible?). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">As for the subsequent works you refer to, I understood them as pointing to warnings as a type of speech acts that apprehensionals <i class="">tend</i> <i class="">to</i> surface in, but which are not a necessary prerequisite for a given element to qualify as an apprehensional. I would be very hesitant to equate these two, especially given that we are speaking about a semantic definition on the one hand, vs. usage patterns and pragmatic issues such as interlocutive force on the other hand.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Bastian</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Am 14.09.2023 um 12:52 schrieb Michael Daniel <<a href="mailto:misha.daniel@gmail.com" class="">misha.daniel@gmail.com</a>>:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div id="gmail-:5zs" class="gmail-tS-tY editable gmail-LW-avf gmail-Am gmail-Al gmail-aO9 gmail-tS-tW" aria-label="Текст письма" role="textbox" aria-multiline="true" tabindex="1" style="direction:ltr;min-height:85px" aria-controls=":7bz">Dear Christian,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">(I put this message back to the original thread in order not to spoil your concise concluding message).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I was a bit surprised when the discussion of the apprehensive came up as a potential category counterpart of the approbative (approbative, welcome!). I have a limited experience of working with apprehensives, and my intuitions are limited to the extension of this empirical domain in East Caucasian. It could be that the apprehensives in the data Ellison, Bastian and Åshild alluded to are very different. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">However, not only in the cross-linguistic study of apprehensives that followed Lichtenberk (e.g. Dobrushina 2006, work by Eva Shultze-Berndt and Marine Vuillermet), but I think also in Lichtenberk himself the category of apprehesion is far from being equated with just negative evaluation, which would be the counterpart to your definition of the approbative. In this line of research, apprehensive is often considered as grammaticalization of warning, sometimes if not often including an element of manipulative speech act (causing the addressee to avoid an undesirable situation or an undesirable consequence; hence the short-lived alternative term preventive). This is how I've been reading it. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So, to me, the difference would be strong between the approbative with the core meaning of positive evaluation (with possible pragmatic inference to, and diachronic evolution towards contrastive uses or even, as Åshild pointed out, indeed manipulative uses 'P is good [->so do it]', as optatives may be leaning towards imperatives), on the one hand, and the apprehensive with the core meaning of warning ('there is a risk of P'). Note that apprehensive always (?) relates to future and potential situations, while the approbative does not have to belong to the irrealis domain, as example 1 from your initial message shows.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Michael</div></div><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">ср, 13 сент. 2023 г. в 09:06, Åshild Næss <<a href="mailto:ashildn@gmail.com" class="">ashildn@gmail.com</a>>:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">To continue on the apprehensive thread, it's interesting how they seem to overlap with Christian's 'favoratives' in the context of prohibition: 'Let it not be taken away (it is desirable that it is not taken away)', which is a classic context where Oceanic languages would use the apprehensive: 'Let it not be taken away (because its being taken away would be undesirable)'. For those interested, may I recommend Ellen Smith-Dennis' paper on apprehensives and prohibitives: "Don't feel obligated, lest it be undesirable: the relationship between apprehensives and prohibitives in Papapana and beyond", LingTyp 25:3 (2021). <a href="https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/lingty-2020-2070/html" target="_blank" class="">https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/lingty-2020-2070/html</a></div><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" class="">Best,</div><div dir="ltr" class="">Åshild<br class=""><h1 style="box-sizing:border-box;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0.5rem;line-height:36px;font-size:28px;font-family:Montserrat,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif" class=""><br class=""></h1></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Sep 12, 2023 at 12:46 PM Bastian Persohn <<a href="mailto:persohn.linguistics@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">persohn.linguistics@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=""><span class=""></span><span class="">Dear Christian,</span><span class=""><br class=""></span><span class="">Adding to what Ellison said (with apprehensionals sometimes being analyzed as a combination of epistemic possibility and negative subjective evaluation of the state-of-affairs in question), I’d suggest the slightly more common label <br class=""></span><span class=""><span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span><br class=""></span><span class=""><i class="">desiderative</i><br class=""></span><span class=""><br class=""></span><span class="">as the clitic seems to have a function (or one if its functions) somewhere in the realm of bouletic (a.k.a. boulomaic) modality/attitude in the sense of </span>„indicates[ing] the degree of the speaker’s (or someone else’s) liking or disliking of the state of affairs” (Nuts 2005: 12).<div class=""><div class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class=""><br class=""></span></div><div class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class="">Nuyts, Jan. 2005. Modality: Overview and linguistic issues. In William Frawley (ed.), <i class="">The expression of modality</i>. </span><span lang="ES" class="">1–26. Berlin: de Gruyter</span><div class=""><span class=""><br class=""></span></div><div class=""><span class="">Hope this helps!</span></div><div class=""><span class=""><br class=""></span></div><div class=""><span class="">Best,</span></div><div class=""><span class="">Bastian</span></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.45pt"><br class=""></p>
<div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Am 12.09.2023 um 12:03 schrieb Ellison Luk <<a href="mailto:ellisonluk@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">ellisonluk@gmail.com</a>>:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">Dear Christian,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Functionally, this seems to be comparable to the 'apprehensional' category (found in many Australian, Austronesian, and South American languages). Instead of conveying something undesirable or regrettable, the 'favorative' seems to convey desirability or satisfaction. Apprehensional markers also often have epistemic modal functions too (uncertainty), which might also be a function of your marker, if I interpret the interrogative sentence example correctly.<br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Ellison<br class=""></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 12 Sept 2023 at 11:04, Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank" class="">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u class=""></u>
<div class="">
Here is a Cabecar clitic with which I have been struggling for
years: The mobile enclitic <i class="">pa</i> attaches to almost any
constituent in a clause S at almost any position and conveys
something like 'S is/would be good/better/convenient/desirable'. The
translation difference between 'is' and 'would be' depends on the
mood of the verb of S.<br class="">
<br class="">
With the indicative:<br class="">
<ol class="">
<li class=""><p style="break-inside:avoid;margin-top:0.21cm;break-after:avoid" lang="zxx" align="left" class=""><a name="m_-5640184157841873478_m_-2109718738639942723_m_-7489839403748840808___RefNumPara__1821223_1223437824" class=""></a> <font color="#008000" class="">I ks-á=jka=pa.</font></p>
</li>
</ol><p style="break-inside:avoid;margin-left:1.27cm;break-after:avoid" align="left" class="">
<font style="font-size:11pt" size="2" class="">3 sing-<span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">pfv=atp=fav</span></font></p><p class=""> ‘Appropriately enough, he
already sang.’</p>
<ol class="">
<li class=""><p style="break-inside:avoid;margin-top:0.21cm;break-after:avoid" lang="zxx" align="left" class=""><a name="m_-5640184157841873478_m_-2109718738639942723_m_-7489839403748840808___RefNumPara__8061151_1223437824" class=""></a> <font color="#008000" class="">Ká yís dä jawá kú̱na̱=pa=ba.</font></p>
</li>
</ol><p style="break-inside:avoid;margin-left:1.27cm;break-after:avoid" align="left" class="">
<font style="font-size:11pt" size="2" class=""><span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">neg</span> 1.<span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">sg</span> <span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">cop</span> healer <span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">n.val=</span></font><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2" class=""><span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">fav</span></font><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2" class=""><span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">=acp</span></font></p><p class=""> ‘I am not yet a healer (as
would be
desirable).’</p><div class=""><br class=""></div>
With the subjunctive:<br class="">
<ol class="">
<li class=""><p style="break-inside:avoid;margin-top:0.21cm;break-after:avoid" lang="zxx" align="left" class=""><a name="m_-5640184157841873478_m_-2109718738639942723_m_-7489839403748840808___RefNumPara__284052_3618361059" class=""></a><font color="#008000" class=""><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">S’ kí̱s-ö́=pa bá kú̱
bë́rbë́na̱ !</font></span></font></font></font></p>
</li>
</ol><p style="break-inside:avoid;margin-left:1.27cm;break-after:avoid" align="left" class="">
<font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2" class="">1.<span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">sg</span> wait-<span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">sbj</span>=</font></font><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2" class=""><span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">fav</span></font><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2" class=""> 2.<span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">sg</span> <span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">erg</span> for.a.while</font></font></p><p class=""> ‘<font face="Cambria, serif" class="">Please
wait
a moment for me !’</font></p>
<ol class="">
<li class=""><p style="break-inside:avoid;margin-top:0.21cm;break-after:avoid" lang="zxx" align="left" class=""><font color="#008000" class=""><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">Kë́</font></span></font></font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""> </font></span></font></font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">i
bak-ó̱-n-ó̱=pa </font></span></font></font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">!</font></font></p>
</li>
</ol><p style="break-inside:avoid;margin-left:1.27cm;break-after:avoid" align="left" class="">
<font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2" class=""><span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">neg</span> 3 <font class=""><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2" class="">take.away</font></font>-<span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">sbj</span>-<span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">mid</span>-<span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">sbj</span>=</font></font><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2" class=""><span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">fav</span></font></p><p class=""> ‘<font face="Cambria, serif" class="">Let
it not
be taken away !’</font></p><p class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">In a
subordinate clause:</font></p>
<ol class="">
<li class=""><p style="break-inside:avoid;margin-top:0.21cm;break-after:avoid" lang="zxx" align="left" class=""><a name="m_-5640184157841873478_m_-2109718738639942723_m_-7489839403748840808___RefNumPara__3278621_1223437824" class=""></a><font color="#008000" class=""><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">Ma̱</font></span></font></font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""> </font></span></font></font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">kú̱ jé
w-ó̱=pa kí̱</font></span></font></font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">=</font></span></font></font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">ka, bá
së́-r=mi̱</font></span></font></font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""> </font></span></font></font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">rä</font></span></font></font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""> </font></span></font></font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">báá.</font></span></font></font></font></p>
</li>
</ol><p style="break-inside:avoid;margin-left:1.27cm;break-after:avoid" align="left" class="">
<font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2" class="">[2.<span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">sg</span> <span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">erg</span> <span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">d.med</span> do1-<span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">sbj</span>=</font></font><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2" class=""><span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">fav</span></font><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2" class=""><span style="font-variant:small-caps" class=""></span> <span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">sup=lat</span><span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">]</span> 2.<span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">sg</span> feel:<span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">non</span><span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">-mid</span>(<span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">ipfv</span>)=<span style="font-variant:small-caps" class=""><font class="">pot</font></span>
<span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">tsa</span> nice</font></font></p><p class=""> ‘<font face="Cambria, serif" class="">Once</font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">
you would </font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">have </font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">conveniently</font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">
</font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">do</font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">ne</font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">
that</font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">, you </font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">might
have felt</font><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""> good</font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">.’</font></p><p class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">In an
interrogative sentence:</font></p>
<ol class="">
<li class=""><p style="break-inside:avoid;margin-top:0.21cm;break-after:avoid" lang="zxx" align="left" class=""><a name="m_-5640184157841873478_m_-2109718738639942723_m_-7489839403748840808___RefNumPara__636698_3340814270" class=""></a> <font color="#008000" class="">… i te i sh-á=k<font face="Cambria, serif" class="">á̱
</font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">ijé w</font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">ä́</font></span></font></font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">=</font></span></font></font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">n</font></span></font></font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">a̠ </font></span></font></font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">i ju</font></span></font></font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">ë́-n-</font></span></font></font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">á̱</font></span></font></font><font color="#008000" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""><span lang="zxx" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">=pa jé=ra ...</font></span></font></font></font></p>
</li>
</ol><p style="break-inside:avoid;margin-left:1.27cm;break-after:avoid" align="left" class="">
<font style="font-size:11pt" size="2" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">
</font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">3 </font><span style="font-variant:small-caps" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">erg</font></span><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""> </font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">3 </font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">say-</font><span style="font-variant:small-caps" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">pfv=asc</font></span><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""> [3.</font><span style="font-variant:small-caps" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">ps</font></span><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""> face</font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">=</font><span style="font-variant:small-caps" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">in</font></span><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""> 3 see</font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">2</font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">-</font><span style="font-variant:small-caps" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">mid=</font></span></font><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2" class=""><span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">fav</span></font><font style="font-size:11pt" size="2" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class=""> </font><span style="font-variant:small-caps" class=""><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">d.med=tmp]</font></span></font></p><p class=""> ‘…<font face="Cambria, serif" class="">
they
</font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">added: “Does he perhaps know?”</font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">
...</font><font face="Cambria, serif" class="">’ (Historia p. 8)</font></p><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">
<br class=""></div>
The subjunctive sentences would be imperatives and jussives without
<i class="">pa</i> and are attenuated by it. I have never seen such a thing
before; and since it is so unfamiliar, I cannot even translate it
well into English. I had at first called it 'optative'. There is,
however, a different particle with illocutionary force which
converts a subjunctive sentence into an optative sentence ('Would
that S!'), where S may or may not contain <i class="">pa</i>.<br class="">
<br class="">
I don't expect anybody to come up with an analysis of <i class="">pa</i> on
the basis of the above examples. My question is: Has anybody ever
seen such a thing? And if so, how did you call it? I am not
particularly happy with my (or rather, my coauthor Guillermo's) most
recent neologism 'favorative'.<br class="">
<br class="">
-- <br class="">
<div class=""><p style="font-size:90%" class="">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br class="">
Rudolfstr. 4<br class="">
99092 Erfurt<br class="">
<span style="font-variant:small-caps" class="">Deutschland</span></p>
<table style="font-size:80%" class="">
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