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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Thanks for reminding me of this paper, Françoise! I had sort of “lost” this one. Meaning I skimmed it a while back, thought it was important, but then couldn’t find it again, apparently because it merged in
my memory with another paper </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Apple Color Emoji"">😉</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">The phenomena Witzlack-Makarevich & coauthors are talking about are distinct from the ones I’m concerned with, because they’re dealing with argument marking, whereas I’m interested in broadly voice-related
phenomena. But, these phenomena are clearly related, and ‘co-argument sensitivity’ strikes me a good cover term for both (while at the same time being much less abstract and broad than Martin’s ‘scenarios’).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Still not quite the narrow term I’m looking for though
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Apple Color Emoji"">😉</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> – Best – Juergen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
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</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
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There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Françoise Rose <francoise.rose@univ-lyon2.fr><br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 10:49<br>
<b>To: </b>LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG <lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Terminology query: Obviative constraints<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear Jürgen,</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Aren’t you looking for what Alena Witzlack-Makarevich & colleague call “co-arguments conditions” ?</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">See the following reference:</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Witzlack-Makarevich, Alena & Zakharko, Taras & Bierkandt, Lennart & Zúñiga, Fernando & Bickel, Balthasar. 2016. Decomposing hierarchical alignment: co-arguments as conditions on alignment.
<i>Linguistics</i> 531–562.</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Best,</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Françoise</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt">De :</span></b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"> Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org>
<b>De la part de</b> Martin Haspelmath<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> lundi 18 septembre 2023 20:39<br>
<b>À :</b> lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org<br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [Lingtyp] Terminology query: Obviative constraints</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR">I wouldn't use "obviation", because outside of North American linguistics, this has come to be used in the sense of "disjoint reference from the subject" (e.g. Szabolcsi, Anna, 2021. Obviation in Hungarian: What is its scope, and is it due
to competition? <i>Glossa: A Journal of General Linguistics</i> 6(1): 57. doi: <a href="https://doi.org/10.5334/gjgl.1421">
https://doi.org/10.5334/gjgl.1421</a>)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR">In my 2021 paper on role-reference associations (<a href="https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/004047">https://ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/004047</a>), I referred to the kinds of phenomena that Jürgen talks about as "scenario splits" of argument coding,
because they depend on the *scenario* (the referential-prominence value of two arguments).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR">I wouldn't use the term "alignment" for such phenomena, because this is generally reserved for coexpression patterns (accusative alignment is coexpression of S and A, ergative alignment is coexpression of S and P, etc).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR">But this discussion is useful because it illustrates how difficult we sometimes find it to talk about interesting phenomena with terms that we all understand right away.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR">Martin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR">On 18.09.23 20:26, Juergen Bohnemeyer wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt">Fair enough, Christian! Let me try to restate my comment a little more sensibly:</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt">Both active/passive voice alternations and the kind of phenomena I’m interested in (including inverse voice marking) are governed by constraints on topicality and animacy, and thus more broadly by
‘reference-conditioned alignment constraints’.</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt">But I was looking specifically for a way to designate only those constraints that occur in obviative alignment systems.
</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt">And those constraints are of a subtly different nature from those that govern active/passive alternations. In active/passive alternations (though surely not in every language-specific construction
that has been called by that label), what matters is whether the actor or the undergoer is topical and where each lands on an animacy scale.
</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt">In contrast, in obviative alignment systems, what matters is whether the actor *<b>outranks</b>* the undergoer in animacy and topicality (including definiteness) or vice versa.</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt">And, again, I’m looking for a way to specifically designate grammatical systems that have constraints of this specific second kind.
</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt">Does that make sense? – Best – Juergen</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
<br>
</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
<br>
There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt">-- </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Christian Lehmann
<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de"><christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, September 18, 2023 at 19:32<br>
<b>To: </b>Juergen Bohnemeyer <a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><jb77@buffalo.edu></a>,
<a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Terminology query: Obviative constraints</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt">I'm afraid I don't understand your qualms. An alternation is not a constraint, and voices and diatheses are no alignment constraints.</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt">Thanks, Christian! But wouldn’t those terms again also extend to voice alternations, including European-style active/passive alternations? I’m not looking for a cover term, mind you, but rather specifically
for a term that narrowly denotes those constraints that specifically concern the
<i>relative</i> animacy and topicality (etc.) of core arguments in transitive (and ditransitive) clauses. – Best – Juergen</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)<br>
Professor, Department of Linguistics<br>
University at Buffalo <br>
<br>
Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus<br>
Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 <br>
Phone: (716) 645 0127 <br>
Fax: (716) 645 3825<br>
Email: </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu" title="mailto:jb77@buffalo.edu"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0078D4">jb77@buffalo.edu</span></a></span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
Web: </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/" title="http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:#0563C1">http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/</span></a></span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> <br>
<br>
</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh) </span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"><br>
<br>
There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In <br>
(Leonard Cohen) </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt">-- </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span lang="FR" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Lingtyp <a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org">
<lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org></a> on behalf of Christian Lehmann <a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de">
<christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, September 18, 2023 at 18:12<br>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG">LINGTYP@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG</a>
<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org"><lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Lingtyp] Terminology query: Obviative constraints</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt">Since animacy (better: empathy
</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Apple Color Emoji"">🙂</span><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt">) and topicality are both related to reference, the term you are looking for could be something like 'reference-conditioned alignment
constraint'. It would cover not only empathy and topicality, but also other referential properties like specificity, which play a role in alignment, too.<br>
Best, Christian</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt">-- </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.0pt">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Tel.:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">+49/361/2113417</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">E-Post:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Web:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu/">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt">-- </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="FR" style="font-size:10.0pt">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">+49/361/2113417</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">E-Post:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><a href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt">Web:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><a href="https://www.christianlehmann.eu/">https://www.christianlehmann.eu</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="FR" style="font-size:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span><span lang="FR"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang="FR">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="FR">Lingtyp mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="FR"><a href="mailto:Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org">Lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="FR"><a href="https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp">https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><span lang="FR">-- <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="FR">Martin Haspelmath<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="FR">Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="FR">Deutscher Platz 6<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="FR">D-04103 Leipzig<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="FR"><a href="https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/">https://www.eva.mpg.de/linguistic-and-cultural-evolution/staff/martin-haspelmath/</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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