<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">Thanks very much, Christian!<div>I am only familiar with Tagalog and Singapore Malay (which has to some extent converged with Hokkien and Singlish in terms of structure and world view), but I do think in trying to understand linguistic phenomena we need to take diachrony into account, as all phenomena are the result of historical development, and language is always emerging out of discourse, i.e. always changing, so there is no clear distinction between “synchronic” vs. “diachronic”. If it can be shown that the PAN roots were verbal, and then nominalized by the affixes, that would be important to understanding the current situation. The question then would then be how the verbal roots became “nominal”, and the use of the affixes spread to object words (assuming they were originally nominals). Currently in Tagalog you can use the affixes with any word, even brand names, e.g. Mag-She-Shell ako [Actor_orientation:Irrealis-REDUP:imperfective-Shell_gasoline 1sg:TOPIC] 'I will use Shell gasoline’.<br><div>
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</div>
<div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 28 Dec 2023, at 9:52 PM, Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div><p>Thanks, Randy, for the correction. Diachronically, many
conjugated forms stem from nominalized forms, whether or not this
is synchronically yet verifiable/relevant. Maybe one should say
that (this concept of) orientation presupposes the nominal
categorization of a verbal base. For some Austronesian languages,
this, of course, concerns the dispute over the categorization of
major word classes, which I am unprepared to join.</p><p>Best, Christian</p><p>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 28.12.2023 um 14:44 schrieb Randy J.
LaPolla:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:2E79C1F4-1D80-4341-B9AD-2705B3011B4E@gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Wow, Thanks very much, Christian! What goes around comes around!
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For the record, in the 2004 article (sorry I forgot to give
the reference last time), p. 1481, Himmelmann says </div>
<div><span lang="EN-GB">" </span><span lang="EN-US">…</span><span lang="EN-GB"> Note, however, that Tagalog voice affixes are
not nominalising in a morphosyntactic sense, since they do not
change the syntactic category of the base . . .”</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is tricky to talk about nominal vs. verbal in Tagalog. It
is true, though, that the unmarked clause is an equative clause,
with the two parts of the equation having the same reference,
but whether you use the affixes or not, it is the same. That is,
the bare root (action or object) is “nominal” in this sense, and
so adding the orientation affixes adds an orientation, but does
not change the syntactic category.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 21.25pt; text-align: justify; line-height: 13pt; text-indent: -21.25pt;"><span lang="EN-US">Himmelmann, Nikolaus P. 2004. Tagalog
(Austronesian). In Geert Booij, Christian Lehmann, Joachim
Mugdan & Stavros Skopeteas (eds.), <em>Morphology. An
International Handbook on Inflection and Word Formation</em>,
1473-1490. Berlin: de Gruyter.<font style="font-size: 10pt;" face="Palatino Linotype, serif"><o:p></o:p></font></span></div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All the best,</div>
<div>Randy<br>
<div>
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<div>
<div><span style="font-size: 14px;">——</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Professor
Randy J. LaPolla</span><span style="font-family: Verdana, Helvetica, Arial; font-size: 13.333333015441895px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;">（罗仁地)</span><span style="font-size: 14px;">, PhD FAHA </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Center
for Language Sciences</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Institute
for Advanced Studies in Humanities and
Social Sciences</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 14px;">Beijing
Normal University at Zhuhai</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 14px;">A302,
Muduo Building, #18 Jinfeng Road, Zhuhai
City</span><span style="font-size: 14px;">, Guangdong</span><span style="font-size: 14px;">, China</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 14px;"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 14px;"><a href="https://randylapolla.info/" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://randylapolla.info</a></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">ORCID
ID:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color: rgb(73, 74, 76); background-color: white;"><a href="https://orcid.org/0000-0002-6100-6196" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://orcid.org/0000-0002-6100-6196</a> </span></span>
</div>
<div><span style="font-size: 14px;"><br>
</span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 15px;">广东省珠海市唐家湾镇金凤路18号木铎楼A302</span><br style="font-size: 15px;">
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 28 Dec 2023, at 9:29 PM, Christian Lehmann
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de"><christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de></a> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div><p>Dear Randy, dear Alex (and whoever may be interested
in this topical area),</p><p>the following may seem (justifiably) an attempt at
safeguarding original authorship and grinding my axe.
However, more importantly, I would like to use the
occasion to lend additional weight to a linguistic
concept which I have found very useful and generally
applicable and which I think deserves to be known
widely.</p><p>The concept of orientation was defined, under its
German term 'Ausrichtung', in:</p><p>Lehmann, Christian 1984, <i>Der Relativsatz.
Typologie seiner Strukturen - Theorie seiner
Funktionen - Kompendium seiner Grammatik.</i>
Tübingen: G. Narr (Language Universals Series, 2); pp.
151-153.<br>
</p><p> It was taken up in:<br>
</p><p>Himmelmann, Nikolaus 1987, <i>Morphosyntax und
Morphologie - Die Ausrichtungsaffixe im Tagalog.</i>
München: Fink (Studien zur Theoretischen Linguistik,
8).</p><p>And either Himmelmann or myself soon translated the
German term into 'orientation'. It seems quite
possible that Lemaréchal got it from Himmelmann.</p><p>Adding to the definition from Lemaréchal, it may be
worthwhile to clarify that the term applies to
nominalized verbal constructions. These are either
non-oriented or oriented. The non-oriented ones have
the same meaning as the verb stem itself, viz. the
situation core (some call it event type) in question,
like <i>(Y's) employment</i> or <i>that X employs Y</i>.
The oriented ones designate a participant in that
situation type, like <i>employer/who employs</i> or <i>employee/whom
X employs</i>. On the one hand, it is profitable to
analyze nominalized constructions with respect to how
their orientation is coded or left to inference. On
the other hand, one may ask whether orientation does
presuppose nominalization (in the widest, syntactic
and morphological sense). Himmelmann at least argues
that the Tagalog verb forms are actually nominalized;
they are comparable to participles like <i>employing</i>
and <i>employed</i>.<br>
</p><p>Apologies, (and please don't forget my initial
question!),<br>
</p><p>Christian</p><p>------------------------------------------------------------------------
<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 28.12.2023 um 13:59
schrieb Alex Francois:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAGcZC0ryaJiYA2dh0fkfAizVL7STkiJ68KBB9HiPoQqsK4HFig@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">dear Randy,
dear Christian,</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">The term
"orientation", in the context of Tagalog, was
first proposed by Alain Lemaréchal:</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="">
<ul style="">
<li style=""><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Lemaréchal,
Alain. 1989. <i style="">Les parties du
discours: Sémantique et syntaxe</i>. <br>
Linguistique Nouvelle. Paris: Presses
Universitaires de France.<br>
</font></li>
<li style=""><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">Lemaréchal,
Alain. 1991. Dérivation et orientation dans
les langues de Philippines (exemples
tagalog). <br>
<i style="">Bulletin de la Société de
Linguistique de Paris</i> 86-1, 317-358.</font></li>
</ul>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">(Unfortunately,
the 1989 monograph is only <a href="https://books.google.fr/books?id=xsGzDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PT195&ots=lyEVZZ_jBQ&dq=tesni%C3%A8re%20orientation%20des%20verbes&lr&pg=PT120#v=onepage&q=orientation&f=false" moz-do-not-send="true">partially reproduced
digitally</a>; nor can I find a Pdf of the
1991 paper.)</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">Let me copy
this passage from my hardcopy of Lemaréchal
(1989), p.102:</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px">
<div class="gmail_default" style=""><span style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">“</span><font face="trebuchet ms, sans-serif">L'orientation
d'un verbe est cette caractéristique qui
associe aux différents participants en rapport
avec lui à la fois un rang dans la hiérarchie
et un rôle dans la situation, sachant que
cette association est caractéristique de la
sous-classe et de la voix de la forme verbale.
[...] <br>
Ainsi l'orientation primaire du verbe
transitif actif est une orientation vers un
premier actant sujet agent, son orientation
secondaire une orientation vers un second
actant objet patient. [...] <br>
L'orientation étant une caractéristique qui
relève de la valence des formes concernées,
elle est soit stockée dans le lexique, soit
marquée par des dérivations régulières — c'est
le cas des phénomènes de diathèse.</font><font face="tahoma, sans-serif">”</font></div>
</blockquote>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">The syntax
of "orientation" is a major topic of Lemaréchal's
research, in various languages (mostly Tagalog,
Palauan, Malagasy, Kinyarwanda, etc.). He applies
the concept to various parts of speech:
orientation of verbs, of nouns, of clauses... <font size="1">(see the “<a href="https://www.google.com/books/edition/Les_parties_du_discours/xsGzDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=orientation%20tagalog&pg=PT6" moz-do-not-send="true">Deuxième partie</a>”
section of his 1989 monograph</font>). </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif">best</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif"><font size="2">Alex</font></span>
<hr style="font-family: tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 13.33px; font-style: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" width="70" size="1" noshade="noshade" align="left"><p style="font-family:verdana,geneva,sans-serif"><font size="2"><span style="color:rgb(69,129,142)">Alex
François</span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</span></font></p>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a style="text-decoration:none" href="http://www.lattice.cnrs.fr/en/alexandre-francois/" rel="noopener" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">LaTTiCe</a> — <a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="http://www.cnrs.fr/index.html" rel="noopener" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">CNRS–</a></span></font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://www.ens.fr/laboratoire/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-et-cognition-umr-8094" rel="noopener" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ENS</a></span></font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none">–</span></font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://www.psl.eu/en" rel="noopener" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">PSL</a></span></font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none">–</span></font></span><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><a title="ENS" style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="http://www.univ-paris3.fr/lattice-langues-textes-traitements-informatiques-cognition-umr-8094-3458.kjsp" rel="noopener" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Sorbonne
nouvelle</a><br>
</span><a style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="https://researchprofiles.anu.edu.au/en/persons/alex-francois" rel="noopener" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Australian
National University</a></font><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><br>
</span></font></span></font></span>
<div><span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"> </span><span style="text-decoration:none"></span></font></span><span style="text-decoration:none"><a style="color:rgb(51,102,204);text-decoration:none" href="http://alex.francois.online.fr/" rel="noopener" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Personal
homepage</a><br>
</span></font></span></div>
<div><font size="1">___________________</font><font size="1">___________________</font><font size="1">___</font><br>
<span style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><font size="1"><span style="text-decoration:none"></span></font></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">----------
Forwarded message ---------<br>
From: <strong class="gmail_sendername" dir="auto">Randy J. LaPolla</strong> <span dir="auto"><<a href="mailto:randy.lapolla@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">randy.lapolla@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2023 at 02:47<br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] base valency classes of
verb roots<br>
To: Johanna Nichols <<a href="mailto:johanna@berkeley.edu" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">johanna@berkeley.edu</a>><br>
Cc: <<a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>><br>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div style="line-break:after-white-space">Hi
Christian,
<div><span lang="EN-GB">In talking about what
are sometimes discussed as voice or
transitivity-marking affixes in Tagalog,
Himmelman (2004: 1481) argues that the
affixes “change the orientation of a given
base in such a way that it may be used to
refer to one of the participants involved in
the state of affairs denoted by the base </span><span lang="EN-US">…</span><span lang="EN-GB"> In
this view, -<i>um-</i> is an actor orienting
infix which derives from a base such as <i>tango</i> ‘nod,
nodding in assent’ a word <i>tumango</i> which
could be glossed as ‘one who nods, nodder’.
This expression no longer directly denotes
the action of nodding, but rather the
participant who nods. That is, in the
Tagalog clause </span><span lang="EN-US">…</span><span lang="EN-US"> </span><i><span lang="EN-GB">tumango
ang unggo </span></i><span lang="EN-GB">‘The
monkey nodded in assent’, both <i>tumango</i> and <i>unggo</i> refer
to the same entity. Imitating the equational
structure of this clause it could be
rendered as ‘nodd-er in assent (was) the
monkey’ </span><span lang="EN-US">…</span><span lang="EN-GB"> Note, however, that Tagalog
voice affixes are not nominalising in a
morphosyntactic sense, since they do not
change the syntactic category of the base .
. .”. He considers them derivational, not
inflectional affixes, as they apply equally
well to action words and object words: </span><span lang="EN-US">“… </span><span lang="EN-GB">there
are no productive inflectional paradigms for
voice, as suggested by the commonly used
‘paradigmatic’ examples in the literature.
Instead, derivations from all kinds of bases
are only partially predictable on the basis
of their semantics and exhibit a large
number of idiosyncrasies, which again
suggests derivation rather than inflection.”</span></div>
<span style="font-family:-webkit-standard;font-size:medium"></span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So he has used orientation in this way. Not
sure if you can see any parallels in the
structure and use of the affixes.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All the best,</div>
<div>Randy<br>
<div>
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<div>
<div><span style="font-size:14px">——</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:14px">Professor
Randy J. LaPolla</span><span style="font-family:Verdana,Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13.333333015441895px">（罗仁地)</span><span style="font-size:14px">,
PhD FAHA </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:14px">Center
for Language Sciences</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:14px">Institute
for Advanced Studies
in Humanities and
Social Sciences</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:14px">Beijing
Normal University at
Zhuhai</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:14px">A302,
Muduo Building, #18
Jinfeng Road, Zhuhai
City</span><span style="font-size:14px">,
Guangdong</span><span style="font-size:14px">,
China</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:14px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:14px"><a href="https://randylapolla.info/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://randylapolla.info</a></span></div>
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<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 28 Dec 2023, at 1:52 AM, Johanna B
Nichols <<a href="mailto:johanna@berkeley.edu" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">johanna@berkeley.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I use "ambitransitive" instead of
"ambivalent" -- it's unambiguous.
"Flexible" is also used in this
sense, but already has too wide a
range of meanings.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree, ±oriented and ±directed
aren't great. A few years ago,
searching through a thesaurus for
possibilities, I tried out
"bearing(s)", which is a good
replacement for "direction" or
"orientation" but not for
directed/undirected, etc. (Well, we
have "rudderless", but that's too
heavy on the connotations, and
anyway no related antonym.) I think
the same problem comes up with
anything based on "Janus". Maybe
"steered/unsteered" and "steering"?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Alternatively, we could probably
turn to an Oceanic language for a
precise, well-elaborated set of
relevant nautical terms.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Johanna<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
Wed, Dec 27, 2023 at 4:05 AM
Christian Lehmann <<a href="mailto:christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">christian.lehmann@uni-erfurt.de</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> Dear colleagues,<br>
<br>
sorry for my exaggerated
preoccupation with adequate
terminology. I have to name the
Cabecar (Chibchan) verb root
classes, but am short of
linguistic terms. Verbs form voice
stems for conjugation in active
and middle voice. Middle voice
involves a suffix for all verbs;
active voice involves a suffix in
one root class.<br>
<br>
The criteria of the classification
are:<br>
- Does the root have an active
voice? If not, it is a medial root
(a Classicist would call it <i>deponens</i>).<br>
- Does the active voice stem
involve a suffix (viz. the
causativizer)? If not, I call the
root preliminarily 'directed'.<br>
- Is the root transitive or
intransitive in active voice?<br>
<br>
These are the classes:<br>
1. Directed roots: these
directly conjugate in active
voice:<br>
a. intransitive roots: in
active voice, the verb is
intransitive (e.g. 'laugh');<br>
b. transitive roots: in
active voice, the verb is
transitive (e.g. 'bend').<br>
2. Undirected roots: these do
not directly conjugate in active
voice:<br>
a. medial roots: these
only conjugate in the middle
voice, and the valency of this
voice stem is intransitive (e.g.
'stay');<br>
b. ambivalent roots: these
alternatively take on the middle
voice suffix and then are
intransitive, or they take on the
causativizer and then are
transitive (e.g. 'melt').<br>
<br>
These four classes work
satisfactorily. What I am unhappy
with is the names 'directed',
'undirected' and 'ambivalent'. The
idea underlying 'directed -
undirected' is that undirected
verb roots have no base valency;
this is, instead, conferred to
them by the voice suffix. The idea
behind 'ambivalent' is that these
roots have either valency
depending on the voice suffix that
they are provided with.<br>
<br>
I would prefer 'oriented -
non-oriented' to 'directed -
nondirected'; but this term pair
is taken by the contrast between
verbal constructions of the sort
(English examples:) <i>actor/who
acts</i> vs. <i>action/that he
acts</i>. And 'ambivalent' is a
very ambivalent term; a more
specific one (like 'Janus-headed')
may be more mnemonic.<br>
<br>
Have you seen appropriate term
(pair)s in grammars? Or can you
think of terms that would fit?<br>
<br>
Many thanks in advance,<br>
Christian<br>
-- <br><p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em.
Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></p>
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<div class="moz-signature">-- <br><p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em. Dr. Christian
Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></p>
<table style="font-size:80%">
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</blockquote>
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<br>
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</blockquote>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br><p style="font-size:90%">Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann<br>
Rudolfstr. 4<br>
99092 Erfurt<br>
<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Deutschland</span></p>
<table style="font-size:80%">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>Tel.:</td>
<td>+49/361/2113417</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>E-Post:</td>
<td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:christianw_lehmann@arcor.de">christianw_lehmann@arcor.de</a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
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