<div dir="ltr">Dear Pier Marco, <div><br></div><div>oh, no problem, I also admit that I don't like to provide examples with imaginary contexts because I am not good at it, I keep imagining all possible variables in the context where I would naturally utter such a sentence, and then I get a bit confused. I would definitely use the forms you (and Riccardo) provided. And indeed, imagining the following dialogue</div><div><br></div><div>A: "<i>Che mi dici della domanda di Maria?</i>" "What about Mary's application?"</div><div>B:<i> Tutto bene, la <b>inviava</b> oggi</i> 'All good, she send.INDICATIVE:IMPERFECTIVE it today' (implied: as per my latest knowledge, she wants to send it today) - neutral </div><div>but my original example <i>Tutto bene, la <b>invia</b> oggi </i>'All good, she sends it today' has a strong implication that either (i) she has not yet sent it and will later today or (ii) she was struggling with it and now she's absolutely certain she is able to send it. <br></div><div><br></div><div>I could also imagine a context where I say "<i>Oh, oggi Maria<b> invia </b>la domanda! Chiediamole se l'ha già fatto</i>" 'Oh, today Maria sends the application! Let's ask her if she has already done it' - here the main factor in play is that we (the imaginary third colleague and I) have been expecting Maria to send it (like 'the great day has finally arrived, today Maria sends the application'). (or, with another verb: "<i>Oh, oggi <b>arriva</b> Francesco dalla Germania! Andiamo a vedere se è già arrivato" </i>'Today Francesco arrives from germany. let's go see if he's already arrived' - <i><b>arrivava</b></i> IMPERF is also possible).</div><div><br></div><div>I think the difference between<i> <b>inviava</b></i> (IND:IMPERF) and <i><b>invia</b></i> (IND:PRES) is that in the first case I am reporting what was told to me yesterday (either by Maria or by someone else), in the second case I am stating that the expected date of Maria's sending the application has (finally) arrived. So probably<i><b> inviava</b></i> is the best answer to Östen's original question.</div><div><br></div><div>(To be sure, I just now asked my mom, also a speaker of Roman Italian (rephrasing the example into "Ludovica (my sister's name) SEND a letter"). It took me while to get here to produce a sentence without additional elements like "she promised that", "she said that". I finally suggested the following context: she and I are chatting, and then she suddeny remembers my sister's intention to send the letter - what would she say, out of the blue? She suggested either "<i>Oh,</i> <i>Oggi Ludovica<b> dovrebbe inviare</b> la lettera</i>" (she <b>should send</b> the letter). When I asked about <i>"<b>inviava/doveva inviare</b></i>" (sent/had to send - indicative imperfective), she accepted it but marked it as "incorrect Italian" (because of indicative mood instead of conditional). Finally, I asked about "<i><b>spedisce</b></i>" (sends - indicative present). She also accepted it, but remarked that it would only be fine if you are absolutely certain that she does send it today, no matter what time.)</div><div><br></div><div>Best, Lidia </div><div><br></div><div>PS: I agree sottomettere may have a negative undertone, and inviare is just as good. But I really endorse the use of applicare and applicazione to mean 'apply (for a job/a grant)' and 'application' - I like these loans very much. There may also be a slight generational difference - my mother does not use applicare and applicazione either with this meaning, even though she also works in academia.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 4:31 PM Pier Marco Bertinetto <<a href="mailto:piermarco.bertinetto@sns.it" target="_blank">piermarco.bertinetto@sns.it</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Dear All,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">I do not share Lidia's view (sorry, Lidia!).<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">If I understand Östen's example correctly, the intention to submit the application was expressed yesterday and at the moment I still ignore whether the event has occurred.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">I would then say:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">a) Oggi Maria inviava (Imperfect) la sua domanda<span lang="EN-US"> </span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><span lang="EN-US"> (= most obvious rendering; absolutely neuter w.r.t. occurrence)</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><span lang="EN-US">b) </span>Oggi Maria doveva (Imperfect) inviare la sua domanda </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"> (= epistemic meaning of 'dovere'; underlines uncertainty about the occurrence)</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">c) Oggi Maria voleva (Imperfect) inviare la sua domanda </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"> (= I would rank it epstemically intermediate between (a) and (b))</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">d) Oggi Maria avrebbe inviato (Past Conditional) la sua domanda</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"> (= double reading: (i) essentially similar to (b) but definitely not colloquial; (ii) counterfactual, i.e. I know that she could not [(ii) is of course irrelevant with respect to the situation proposed by Östen])</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">PS: Lidia is right in observing that most people nowadays use these two loans (sottomettere, applicazione); but since these words have other meanings in Italian, I prefer, at the cost of being called purist, to avoid them in these contexts. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">In other words: Io sottopongo domande (che sono certo frutto della mia applicazione), ma non mi sottometto. Mai!</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Best<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Pier Marco<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br><span lang="EN-US"></span><span lang="EN-US"></span></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno gio 15 feb 2024 alle ore 11:44 Lidia Federica Mazzitelli <<a href="mailto:lfmazzitelli@gmail.com" target="_blank">lfmazzitelli@gmail.com</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto">Dear Östen, </div><div dir="auto"><br><div dir="auto">In Italian I would say: </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">"<i>Oggi Mary spedisce la domanda</i>" ** Today Mary submits the application' - if I am just fact-stating (In a context like Colleague A: "How's it going with that proposal Mary has been working on? ME: <i>Tutto bene, oggi la spedisce </i>"All good, today she submits it" - it is fine both in case she already sent it/ she has not yet sent it.)</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"> "<i>Oggi Mary dovrebbe spedire la domanda</i>" 'Today Mary should submit the application' (who knows if she will at all?) - if chatting with a third colleague about Mary (and I am unsure whether she will be submitting the application at all). </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">(** Please note: In real life I'd say "<i>oggi Maria<b> sottomette</b> la domanda per la grant</i>", o "oggi <i>Maria sottomette <b>l'applicazione</b></i><b>" </b>but I would then have to endure endless reprimands from purists who say "you don't use "sottomettere" and "applicare"/"applicazione" in Italian with that meaning!" - even if almost everyone uses them (and I fully endorse this use). I don't even try to translate grant, so I blocked it out from my translation.)<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div>My intuition on Lakurumau, an Oceanic language of PNG, is that they would use the irrealis - unless they were absolutely certain she had already sent it (But that's not the context you imagined, right?)</div><div><br></div><div>T<i>aning</i><i> Mary <b>ka=daa lis paan-in </b> a application pan=a grant</i></div><div>today M. 3SG.S=IRR send go-APPL ART application OBL=ART grant</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Lidia </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il mer 14 feb 2024, 22:29 Östen Dahl <<a href="mailto:oesten@ling.su.se" target="_blank">oesten@ling.su.se</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I would like to ask for intuitions about the following, in one or more languages that you are acquainted with.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Suppose your colleague Mary said on Monday: "Tomorrow I'm going to submit my grant proposal." Now it's about noon on Tuesday, and you have no idea whatsoever of the time of the realization of her intention. Maybe she
did it in the morning, maybe she'll wait until midnight, and maybe she's just doing it right now. How would you express the sentence below in your language(s), replacing SUBMIT by a suitable verb form? The idea is that you should try to use a maximally simple
and natural formulation without excluding any possibility.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:36pt"><span lang="EN-US">Today Mary SUBMIT her grant proposal<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">All comments are welcome.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks in advance!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV">- Östen<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><pre cols="72"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span></span></span>=========================================================
<span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span></span></span> |||| Pier Marco Bertinetto
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editor of "Italian Journal of Linguistics"<br> webpage <<a href="https://www.ae-info.org/ae/Member/Bertinetto_Pier" target="_blank">https://www.ae-info.org/ae/Member/Bertinetto_Pier</a>>
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