<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Dear All,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">I do not share Lidia's view (sorry, Lidia!).<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">If I understand Östen's example correctly, the intention to submit the application was expressed yesterday and at the moment I still ignore whether the event has occurred.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">I would then say:</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">a) Oggi Maria inviava (Imperfect) la sua domanda<span lang="EN-US"> </span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><span lang="EN-US"> (= most obvious rendering; absolutely neuter w.r.t. occurrence)</span></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><span lang="EN-US">b) </span>Oggi Maria doveva (Imperfect) inviare la sua domanda </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"> (= epistemic meaning of 'dovere'; underlines uncertainty about the occurrence)</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">c) Oggi Maria voleva (Imperfect) inviare la sua domanda </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"> (= I would rank it epstemically intermediate between (a) and (b))</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">d) Oggi Maria avrebbe inviato (Past Conditional) la sua domanda</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"> (= double reading: (i) essentially similar to (b) but definitely not colloquial; (ii) counterfactual, i.e. I know that she could not [(ii) is of course irrelevant with respect to the situation proposed by Östen])</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">PS: Lidia is right in observing that most people nowadays use these two loans (sottomettere, applicazione); but since these words have other meanings in Italian, I prefer, at the cost of being called purist, to avoid them in these contexts. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">In other words: Io sottopongo domande (che sono certo frutto della mia applicazione), ma non mi sottometto. Mai!</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Best<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Pier Marco<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br><span lang="EN-US"></span><span lang="EN-US"></span></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno gio 15 feb 2024 alle ore 11:44 Lidia Federica Mazzitelli <<a href="mailto:lfmazzitelli@gmail.com">lfmazzitelli@gmail.com</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto">Dear Östen, </div><div dir="auto"><br><div dir="auto">In Italian I would say: </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">"<i>Oggi Mary spedisce la domanda</i>" ** Today Mary submits the application' - if I am just fact-stating (In a context like Colleague A: "How's it going with that proposal Mary has been working on? ME: <i>Tutto bene, oggi la spedisce </i>"All good, today she submits it" - it is fine both in case she already sent it/ she has not yet sent it.)</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"> "<i>Oggi Mary dovrebbe spedire la domanda</i>" 'Today Mary should submit the application' (who knows if she will at all?) - if chatting with a third colleague about Mary (and I am unsure whether she will be submitting the application at all). </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">(** Please note: In real life I'd say "<i>oggi Maria<b> sottomette</b> la domanda per la grant</i>", o "oggi <i>Maria sottomette <b>l'applicazione</b></i><b>" </b>but I would then have to endure endless reprimands from purists who say "you don't use "sottomettere" and "applicare"/"applicazione" in Italian with that meaning!" - even if almost everyone uses them (and I fully endorse this use). I don't even try to translate grant, so I blocked it out from my translation.)<br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div>My intuition on Lakurumau, an Oceanic language of PNG, is that they would use the irrealis - unless they were absolutely certain she had already sent it (But that's not the context you imagined, right?)</div><div><br></div><div>T<i>aning</i><i> Mary <b>ka=daa lis paan-in </b> a application pan=a grant</i></div><div>today M. 3SG.S=IRR send go-APPL ART application OBL=ART grant</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Lidia </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il mer 14 feb 2024, 22:29 Östen Dahl <<a href="mailto:oesten@ling.su.se" target="_blank">oesten@ling.su.se</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I would like to ask for intuitions about the following, in one or more languages that you are acquainted with.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Suppose your colleague Mary said on Monday: "Tomorrow I'm going to submit my grant proposal." Now it's about noon on Tuesday, and you have no idea whatsoever of the time of the realization of her intention. Maybe she
did it in the morning, maybe she'll wait until midnight, and maybe she's just doing it right now. How would you express the sentence below in your language(s), replacing SUBMIT by a suitable verb form? The idea is that you should try to use a maximally simple
and natural formulation without excluding any possibility.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-indent:36pt"><span lang="EN-US">Today Mary SUBMIT her grant proposal<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">All comments are welcome.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thanks in advance!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="SV">- Östen<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><pre cols="72"><span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span></span></span>=========================================================
<span style="background-color:rgb(255,0,0)"><span></span></span> |||| Pier Marco Bertinetto
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