<div dir="ltr">In his clarifying reply of Febr. 16th
Östen writes "
<span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)">I don't think anyone used a straightforward future tense or anything equivalent". Nevertheless, even in a clearly limited time reference as 'today' ,'in a week' , "in a month" it is possible to have a distinction referring to the speaking moment. </span>
<span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)">"Today the shops are closed","Segodnja magaziny zakryty" include a time span of 24 hours, but </span><div><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;text-indent:36pt">T<b>oday Mary SUBMIT her grant proposal</b></span></div><div><div style="text-indent:48px"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:14.6667px">does admit that Mary will submit her proposal after the speaker's utterance but before 12 p.m. As I wrote : </span></font><i>Oggi M. invierà </i>(FUT)<i> la sua domanda per la borsa,</i> whereby <i>invierà </i>seems to me a straightforward (near) future tense.</div><div style="text-indent:48px">Many thanks for the interesting discussion !</div><div style="text-indent:48px">Paolo</div> <br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Prof. Dr. Paolo Ramat</span><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><div>Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Socio corrispondente<br><div>'Academia Europaea'</div><div>'Societas Linguistica Europaea', Honorary Member</div></div><div><div>Università di Pavia (retired)</div><div>Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) (retired)</div></div><div><br></div></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">piazzetta Arduino 11 - I 27100 Pavia</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">##39 0382 27027</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">347 044 98 44</div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno lun 19 feb 2024 alle ore 18:04 Astrid De Wit <<a href="mailto:astrid.dewit@uantwerpen.be">astrid.dewit@uantwerpen.be</a>> ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Dear Östen,<br>
<br>
You're right - it's very difficult to come up with a good elicitation technique for this one!<br>
<br>
As for the question you were asking yourself, I just wanted to check whether I'm getting this correctly. You're saying that the present tense is sometimes used to refer to non-punctual situations as long as these situations overlap with the time of speaking, but the English example (I must admit I can't say anything about Russian in this case) involves a stative situation, right? "Shops are closed today, shops remain closed today,..." Even if they are temporary states, these are states nonetheless and can therefore be made to coincide with the present, i.e. the time of speaking, because they have the sub-interval property. So I don't think these examples show that the present is extended in time. But perhaps this isn't what you were trying to say, and I misunderstood completely?<br>
<br>
Now that you've given some additional explanation on the kind of context you were after (and indeed, with less focus on the source of information), I think it would be possible to use a present tense in Dutch and say "Marie dient vandaag haar onderzoeksvoorstel in", if you don't know whether or not she's already submitted her proposal. But the Dutch present tense is aspectually ambiguous - or that's what I would say at least - and can therefore refer to situations where, in English for instance, you'd have to use a progressive. I'm not a native speaker of English, but the sentence "Mary submits her application today" seems less felicitous in this context. I would read this as a part of a series of planned events or something along those lines ("So, Mary submits her application today, and I do the same tomorrow, and then what?"). Almost narrative-like.<br>
<br>
In any case, interesting food for thought - thank you!<br>
<br>
Astrid<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Lingtyp <<a href="mailto:lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp-bounces@listserv.linguistlist.org</a>> On Behalf Of Östen Dahl<br>
Sent: vrijdag 16 februari 2024 10:46<br>
To: <a href="mailto:lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">lingtyp@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Intuitions about inclusive time reference<br>
<br>
CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.<br>
<br>
<br>
Many thanks to everyone who has responded to my query!<br>
<br>
The background to my question was that I have been worrying about a well-known phenomenon that Astrid De Wit describes as follows in her book "The Present Perfective Paradox across Languages": "the assumption that there is a cognitive constraint on the alignment of bounded situations in their entirety with the time of speaking, and that this constraint is linguistically reflected in the fact that is difficult to use present perfective constructions with dynamic verbs to report present-time events".<br>
<br>
My problem is that while it seems plausible that one cannot place a bounded situation in the present as long as the present, as Aristotle claimed, is not extended in time, the present tense in languages such as English and Russian can be used about non-punctual time intervals, if they include the time of speech, as in "Today the shops are closed" or "Segodnja magaziny zakryty". So you might expect that you should in fact be able to get perfective presents about events that take place with such an interval. But that is rather tricky. It should preferably be a single event, but if you speak of a single event taking place today, you will tend to get a past or future tense depending on whether it is before or after the time of speech, e.g. "Today I got a letter from Mary" or "Today I will write to Mary". So the question is: what happens if I don't know the exact time of the event? I decided to do my best to construct a situation of that kind.<br>
<br>
I think that at this point, I had better not get into further lengthy explanations but just summarize the result of the query (so far).<br>
<br>
Whatever language responses were about, the major tendency was to modify the sentence so as to reflect the source of the information, that is, either state explicitly that this was something Mary had said or just use a form or construction that indicated that this was what had been planned. Some respondents also used plain present-referring constructions. I don't think anyone used a straightforward future tense or anything equivalent, but I may have missed that. - Particularly notable was the use of the past tense in Dutch pointed out by Astrid De Wit and Kees Hengeveld.<br>
<br>
Christian Lehmann points out that a simple present tense would be more likely if I had not mentioned the source of information. My intention was to make the context as clear as possible. However, I think this illustrates a general difficulty with elicitation as a method. If you mention some aspect of the context in the instructions, this potentially makes it more salient to the respondent than it would be in a natural situation. The respondent may feel a need to include it somehow in the response even if they would not do so "in real life".<br>
<br>
- Östen<br>
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